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Recently witch hunted: Michael Cardamone |
Background:
Bakersfield 1
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Congratulations
to the NCB team in San José on your Emmy nomination
We will
be watching for the story in Rolling Stone April 21!
John Stoll
Dear Sheila,
Found your web page today,
you guys are doing a fine job. I know first hand what a wrongful
conviction can do to you. I served twenty years for a crime I
did not commit and was exonerated, on my 61st birthday, so I
can tell you there are still more like me out there. If there
is anything I can do please feel free to contact me
Keep up the good work.
John Stoll
(We will forward any messages
you would like to send to Mr. Stoll -- injusticebusters)
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News from the San Joaquin
Valley
BAKERSFIELD, Calif., Associated
Press November 9, 2004
A man who spent 20 years in
prison on a wrongful child molestation conviction filed a claim
against Kern County, county attorneys said.
John Stoll had been convicted
of multiple child molestation counts - charges that were overturned
by a judge on April 30. He said the years in prison cost him
everything he had - his family, his home and his job.
"You can't give me back
20 years and you can't give me back my son. So what can you give
me?" he said. "How do you put a price tag on someone's
life?"
County lawyers have expected
the suit ever since Stoll's release from prison in May. The 61-year-old
man is seeking more than $50 million, as well as payment of medical
bills, punitive damages from individual Kern County employees
involved, and attorneys' fees.
In 1985, Stoll was sentenced
to 40 years in prison after he was convicted on 17 counts of
child molestation involving six boys. He was one of 46 defendants
charged with participating in alleged child molestation cases
in Kern County in the 1980s.
Most of those molestation cases
have been thrown out for several reasons, like improper questioning
techniques. Most of the boys who testified against Stoll recanted
their testimony as they grew older.
The Montel Williams
Show
8 November 2004
Interview: The Bakersfield
Witch Hunt;
Guests talk about how they
were, as children,
forced to lie about being sexually abused
HOST: Montel Williams
EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: Montel
Williams, Diane Rappoport
THE BAKERSFIELD WITCH HUNT
MONTEL WILLIAMS: How could
it happen in America?
ALAN (Margie's Oldest Son And
Donald's Brother): I testified against my mother.
WILLIAMS: Two little boys say
they were pressured to lie that their molested them.
And that judge says 48 years.
Twenty years later, the truth
is revealed, but their lives may never be repaired.
ALAN: I don't know how, after
20 years, still to look at my mother in the face.
WILLIAMS: They've never talked
about it until today.
Hold your mom's hand.
DONALD (Margie's Youngest Son
And Alan's Brother): I don't like doing that.
WILLIAMS: Right now I'm going
to figure out how to change that.
The truth about THE BAKERSFIELD
WITCH HUNT. That's what's coming up right now on MONTEL.
Welcome, welcome, welcome,
and thank you so much for joining us today. You know, in a small
town in Bakersfield, California, authorities got caught up with
putting child molesters behind bars. It's even been called the
"Bakersfield witch hunt." Now, 20 years later, people
are questioning if all these people were really guilty. Take
a look at this.
(Excerpts from videotape)
WILLIAMS: Donald and Allen
were brothers being raised by their mother, Margie, in Bakersfield,
California. Eddie and Victor also lived in the neighborhood and
were best friends. All four boys spent time playing at John Stoll's
house. But in June of 1984, the boys would forever be linked,
and their stories stunned their families and the community around
them.
Authorities believed the boys
were molested in a neighborhood sex ring out of John's house,
which included Margie. John and Margie were tried for child molestation.
Four boys testified against John and Margie, including their
own children, offering accounts of sexual abuse. Although John
and Margie insisted they were innocent, they were found guilty--Margie
sentenced to 48 years in prison, John sentenced to 40. Twenty
years later, the boys would be reunited in a courtroom once again
to reveal new shocking details about the case.
(End of excerpts)
WILLIAMS: Please welcome Ed,
Victor, and brothers Donald and Allen to the show. Welcome them
all.
ALAN: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Thanks for being
here, guys.
DONALD: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Thank you to you.
ED: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Thanks for being
here.
VICTOR (Says Investigators
convinced Him To Lie And Say He Was Molested): Hello.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
Twenty years ago, the four
of you--about 20 years ago--were all brought in to testify. At
age seven, eight, six and seven...
ED: Seven.
WILLIAMS: ...seven and seven,
the police were able to take you into separate rooms away from
your parents, correct?
DONALD: Yes. Yes, they always
did.
WILLIAMS: Question you extensively,
and at the end of that time, you testified that what happened?
DONALD: That my mother, John
Stoll, my to-be stepfather, and another guy, Grant Self, had
molested me and these guys, also.
WILLIAMS: And you testified
what? That this happened to you? Your mother? Tell us.
ALAN: I tes--I testified against
my mother.
WILLIAMS: Against your mother.
You testified against who?
ED: Against John Stoll and
one other...
WILLIAMS: And you testified?
VICTOR: Against John Stoll.
WILLIAMS: Did you believe what
you were saying?
DONALD: No.
WILLIAMS: Did you believe what
you were saying?
ALAN: I don't even remember
what I said, whether I believed it or not.
WILLIAMS: Did you believe what
you were saying?
ED: Absolutely not.
WILLIAMS: Did you think at
that time you believed what you were saying?
VICTOR: No, not at all.
WILLIAMS: And--and I will say
this, that the prosecutors and all the city officials in this
case stand by these original convictions, even though everybody
involved has recanted with the exception of maybe one.
ALAN: Well, I didn't necessary
recant.
WILLIAMS: Recant.
ALAN: I had no memory...
WILLIAMS: No memory.
ALAN: ...but which is similar
to a recantation. I mean, I--I definitely can't say they did
something if I have no memory of anything happening.
WILLIAMS: And--and in each
one of--OK, so in the two in your cases. Let's talk about this
for a second. They came in and started saying things to you.
You're a seven-year-old little boy, and--and the police come
in, and they say, `Didn't this happen to you? And I know it happened
because these other three guys said that it happened to you,
and they told me everything that happened.' You were sitting
there a couple of times, right, saying, `Dude, I don't know what
you're talking about.'
VICTOR: I just kept saying
nothing happened.
WILLIAMS: Nothing happened.
VICTOR: They just kept asking
the same questions over and over.
WILLIAMS: Same thing with you?
ED: Yeah, they--they kept on
pressuring us and pressuring us and told us that, you know, `This
is a terrible man. You need to help to get him off the streets.
And we'll just leave you alone. It'll all go away if you tell
us you've seen something.' You know, and they kept on.
WILLIAMS: Same thing with you?
ALAN: Oh, you betcha.
WILLIAMS: Same with you. But
in--in this--their cases, they're talking about somebody who's
not living in their home. They're talking about somebody who's
across the street, somebody they can ignore. Somebody, `Eh, don't
matter. If I make up a lie about that guy, who'll know? It won't
matter.' But the two of you, this was about...
DONALD: Our mom.
WILLIAMS: ...your mom. Now,
talk to me about this for a second. Here's a man coming to you
and telling you, `I know that your mom did this because your
brother told me that she did.'
DONALD: Yes, exactly. During
the preliminary hearing, they--they asked us, you know, all the
questions that they were going to ask us in the--in the regular
hearing, and I answered, `No, nothing ever happened. They never
touched me. They never molested me. No sexual contact whatsoever.'
WILLIAMS: `these guys are asking
me to make my--take my mother away from me.' Did that cross your
mind then? When did it start to sink in?
ALAN: Well, that's was what--what
they told Donald.
Tell him what..
DONALD: Yeah, they--they explained
to me that it would be over sooner. I'd get to see my mother
sooner. I'd--it would all go a lot--a lot more smoothly for my
mother if I went along with their story. Now, I was told my--by
my dad to tell the truth. I told the truth in the preliminary
hearing. As then dur--as soon as the preliminary hearing, I was
took back with the--the--the prosecutors, and they said, `We're
going to have to keep putting you on that stand until you get
it right.'
WILLIAMS: So you just decided,
`Heck with this.'
DONALD: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: `Whatever they want
to hear.'
DONALD: Yeah, I--I mean, I
didn't know any difference between the preliminary hearing and
the next one. I thought they were exactly the same. They were
set up, went to the same stupid chair. So as far as I knew, I
was doing it over and over until we get it...
WILLIAMS: Hindsight is--is,
again, 20/20. But now, guys, look back at this. This has haunted
the four of you your whole life, has it not?
DONALD: Yes.
ALAN: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Because your mother
went to jail for seven years...
DONALD: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...let out on a technicality...
DONALD: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...but out.
John, who was her boyfriend,
right?
DONALD: Oh...
ALAN: No.
WILLIAMS: No? Sorry.
DONALD: Just a friend.
WILLIAMS: A friend.
DONALD: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...went to jail for
15 years.
DONALD: Almost 20.
ALAN: Twenty.
WILLIAMS: Almost 20.
ALAN: Twenty.
WILLIAMS: You weren't involved
in the other case. So, during that period--when your mother came
home, and you started a relationship with her...
DONALD: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...again. But I understand
this has never been discussed in your home. Really--not really
discussed.
DONALD: No.
ALAN: No.
DONALD: In--in the last 15
years before this was brought up again, I spoke with my mother
about it once for about two minutes, and maybe once with my brother
for less than that.
WILLIAMS: How about the two
of you?
VICTOR: I always blocked it
out after that.
ED: Yeah, I always told everybody
about it, trying to get some help, but I didn't know who to go
to to talk to, you know, to help them out.
WILLIAMS: See, because I don't
think people here in this--here or people at home are going to
understand this when we say it. But I should go to a break, but
I got to get this out clear. When I say tormented you, you guys
understood that you had done something that basically falsely
put some people in jail.
DONALD: Yes.
ED: Right.
WILLIAMS: And you thought about
this as kids.
ED: Right.
VICTOR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: You were seven when
this happened. When you were 10 years old, were you thinking
about it?
ED: Constantly.
WILLIAMS: What's your life
been like? Talk to me.
VICTOR: Well, it just--ever
since then, I was distant just with my dad. (Becomes emotional)
WILLIAMS: I mean, I want to
see--here's--here's one of these things, I'm going to tell--I'm
going to help you with this, man. Because, well, people don't
understand. There's a period of time in this country, and still
even today, we have to protect our children. There is no question.
If an allegation comes up, there's no question. But we also have
some people in this country who just get hell-bent on the topic.
And then they allow their emotions and everything else to get
involved in this, and then the truth almost be damned. And at
the end of the day, I don't think anybody stopped for a second
and gone back and asked people like you this question. What's
it been like for you, man, knowing you put somebody away? You
took away a person's life for 15 years.
ED: I felt a lot of guilt for
a long time, yeah. I--I tried to talk to people about it all
the time, and no one could give me any help.
WILLIAMS: You have kids?
ED: Yeah, I have a three-year-old
daughter.
WILLIAMS: Talk about what this
has done to you and your relationship with your child.
ED: Actually now at this point,
I'm having an OK time with her. You know, but I didn't bathe
her for, like, a year.
WILLIAMS: You didn't touch
her like that for a year.
ED: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Afraid that someone
would turn around and do the same thing. Who else here? You have
kids, right?
DONALD: I do.
WILLIAMS: You do.
DONALD: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: What's your relationship
like with your kids?
DONALD: I have two children.
I--I really love them, and it--it--it's terrible as a father.
I feel like a complete jerk to my kids. I have to apologize to
my kids daily for the way I act.
WILLIAMS: And--and how do you
act?
DONALD: I push them away. Lift
them up and hug me, and I'll push them away.
WILLIAMS: And--and why?
DONALD: Totally uncomfortable.
Can't do it.
WILLIAMS: And afraid that maybe
if somebody sees you hug them...
DONALD: I--I don't know. I
just can't--can't get close to them.
WILLIAMS: We'll take a little
break. We'll come back. We'll meet these people, and we'll talk
about how this has affected 13 lives. Take a break. We'll be
back right after this.
(Excerpts from upcoming segment)
MARGIE (Spent 7 Years In Prison
For A Crime She Didn't Commit): They took me to the R&R release
and handed me $200 and said, `We're sorry.'
WILLIAMS: After destroying
her family, taking her children away from her, leaving her locked
up for seven years. `Here's $200, see you.'
(End of excerpts)
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: In Bakersfield, California,
overzealous investigators may have manipulated children to lie
in court saying they were molested. Please welcome Donald and
Alan's mother, Margery to the show--Margie.
Margie, look back at it now
and just tell me what you think, looking back.
MARGIE: Oh, it's incredible,
isn't it?
WILLIAMS: It's absolutely ridiculous.
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: You were sitting
at home.
MARGIE: I was at work, actually.
WILLIAMS: At work.
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: No clue whatsoever.
MARGIE: None. None.
WILLIAMS: Because you came
home....
MARGIE: Actually, I came home,
and they were gone. Nobody was there except my boyfriend, and
he was crying.
WILLIAMS: And what did he say?
MARGIE: He said, `Somebody
came and took the kids.'
WILLIAMS: Did he say why?
MARGIE: He said he didn't know.
WILLIAMS: And at that point
in time, he didn't know.
MARGIE: No. He had no idea.
WILLIAMS: They didn't tell
him anything.
MARGIE: Nope. They just came
and took them.
WILLIAMS: And then when did--did
they come back? Or you had to go down to them.
MARGIE: I went down to them.
WILLIAMS: Oh, that's right.
They...
MARGIE: They said it was too
late...
WILLIAMS: On the...
MARGIE: ...to find out where
they were or anything.
WILLIAMS: And on the next day,
did you--were you reading the newspaper or something?
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Listen to this.
MARGIE: In bed, watching TV,
watching the morning news, got the newspaper and read that I
had been--that I was in jail.
WILLIAMS: And you're sitting
in bed?
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But you read that
you had been re...
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...been arrested...
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...and were now in
jail.
MARGIE: Both Tim and I, yeah.
WILLIAMS: Bot--and you're sitting
in jail, and you're in jail for what was it, like, 30-something,
40-something charges--counts of child molestation?
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But she's reading
this from her bed.
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: They claim it already
happened, she's already been arrested. So you went down to the
police department and said, `Whoa, what's up with this?'
MARGIE: Yes. Yeah.
WILLIAMS: And when you go there,
they went, `What's up with that?' (Puts hands behind his back
as if in handcuffs)
MARGIE: Yeah. Yeah.
WILLIAMS: And then when's the
next time you saw the outside of a jail or prison?
MARGIE: Eight years later.
WILLIAMS: So the minute she
walked in, she didn't walk out again for eight years.
MARGIE: Right. They just put
me in a tank, and a little while later--like, hours later, actually--they
did my picture and my handprints, fingerprints. And then they
said I would have a preliminary trial on Monday, and that's when
I found out all the charges. And I thought I was going to go
home because everybody said nothing happened. I thought I was
walking home that day.
WILLIAMS: And the boys are--at
this point in time, they are actually not recanting, they're
saying it didn't happen.
MARGIE: Right.
WILLIAMS: But then they're--testifying
and saying it didn't happen.
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But then all of a
sudden, they go to court, and you're sitting in a courtroom thinking
your son's going to come and say, `My mom didn't do this.'
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And you're looking
at him. He's not looking at you.
MARGIE: No. They wouldn't let
him. They wouldn't let either one.
WILLIAMS: And he's sitting
on a stand at age six...
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...saying some of
the most vile things...
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: ...and accusing you
of doing them.
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: I'm sure the defense
attorneys brought up the fact that these boys had said something
different a couple of times, right?
MARGIE: (Nods)
WILLIAMS: It goes before the
jury. You--tell me the truth, honestly. When you were sitting
there in that courtroom, and the foreman stood up, you knew he
was going to say, `We find these charges all stupid.'
MARGIE: Oh, yeah.
WILLIAMS: `And innocent, she's
innocent.'
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: What was going through
your mind, especially the fact that these are your boys?
MARGIE: I know. Yeah, yeah.
I--I was just in a daze. I--I was--I was incredulous. I was,
like, `That can't--it still can't be happening. It's still--that
something's going to happen. Somebody's going to say something.
I'm not going to have to go to prison.'
WILLIAMS: And that judge drops
the gavel and says, `48 years.'
MARGIE: Eight years. Yeah.
Forty-eight.
WILLIAMS: And they do it this
way: `48 years,' out the back door of the court into the bus,
straight to prison. Jail first, then prison.
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: And what do they
think of child molesters in prison?
MARGIE: They like hurting them.
WILLIAMS: Even in a woman's
prison?
MARGIE: Oh, yeah.
WILLIAMS: You were pushed into
machinery, beaten, what?
MARGIE: I had a few fights.
WILLIAMS: Few fights?
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: And in all of this,
Margie, I'll ask the question. Do you blame your boys?
MARGIE: Oh, no.
WILLIAMS: Did you even from
the first second?
MARGIE: No, no, no.
WILLIAMS: Did you ever have
a bad thought?
MARGIE: No. They were guilty
of nothing.
WILLIAMS: I'm going to take
a little break, because I--I--I got to take a break. When we
come back, your friend, the person you were just live--just hanging
with, just as a friend, gets caught up in this whole thing. You
haven't even seen John since when?
MARGIE: Mm-hmm. Oh, since we
were sentenced.
WILLIAMS: I'm going to take
a break. You'll see him today. We'll be back right after this.
WILLIAMS: The judge says, `You
have been brought before this court and are being charged with,'
what was it? I don't know, `40-something, 50-something'...
JOHN (Was Falsely Convicted
Of Molesting 6 Boys): Ninety-seven counts.
WILLIAMS: ...`97 counts of
child molestation. How do you plead?'
JOHN: `Not guilty.'
(End of excerpts)
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: Please welcome Margie's
friend, John, to the show.
MARGIE: Hi.
JOHN: Hi, Margie.
MARGIE: It's good to see you
again.
JOHN: Montel, how are you?
WILLIAMS: Good to see you.
Good, good, good. Have a seat, John. I should take you to the
same place, the same journey. Let's go back.
JOHN: OK.
WILLIAMS: When did you find
out? When did they walk in and click-click, and to take you away?
JOHN: Oh, they didn't do all
the click-click. They just came in and knocked on my door, and
they said, `We need to talk to you.' I said, `OK. What's the
problem?' `Well, we're going to search your house.' And I thought,
`Search my house? What would you be looking for?' And I turned
over the search warrant, and on the back, they said what they
were searching for: pornographic, films, you know. I'm going,
`What in the world are they talking about?' So far, they haven't
said I did anything.
I said, `OK, come on.' They
took me outside, didn't handcuff me, put me in the back of the
car and drove me down to the station, took me in and said, `Your
son said you molested him, and we believe him.' And I went, `What?
What the hell are you talking about?' I was just dumbfounded.
I just--you know, I mean, no one had ever hinted that that--you
know, we didn't even see it coming. And I'm standing in the holding
cell, and I look up, and here comes Margie out in--out of the
elevator. They--they bring you into the basement of the jail,
and they take you up in an elevator to the floor where they book
you. And there was Margie. I looked over and I saw her. And I
went--(raises hands in gesture of question) And she's looking
at me, and tears are running down her face, and I'm thinking,
`What in the world's going on?'
WILLIAMS: Then I'll go through
the same process. The next day, they take you in, and they arraign
you, right?
JOHN: Couple of--yeah.
WILLIAMS: Two days later, they
do the arraignment, and they're standing, and a judge says, `You
have been brought in this--before this court and are being charged
with 40-something, 50-something'...
JOHN: Ninety-seven counts.
WILLIAMS: ...`97 counts of
child molestation. How do you plead?'
JOHN: `Not guilty.'
WILLIAMS: And I know you had
to be standing there, same way Margie is. You're listening to
the things, the boys recanted--the boys didn't recant, they said
it didn't happen.
MARGIE: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: And then they said
it happened, but then they even said it didn't happen again,
and they said--so you're thinking, `This is getting thrown out.'
JOHN: And the strangest thing,
Montel. Margie could tell you. What they testified to at the
preliminary hearing to bind us over, you know, the acts they
said we did were never, ever repeated again, and there was a
whole 'nother story.
MARGIE: Yeah.
JOHN: If you take the preliminary
hearing and read it, and you take the trial and read it, `Well,
where are all these charges?'
MARGIE: Wasn't even close.
Wasn't even close.
JOHN: Wasn't even close. They
were--they just...
WILLIAMS: They threw those--they--they
just made up something different?
MARGIE: Yeah.
JOHN: `We got them here now.
Now--now it's time to get everything together.'
MARGIE: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: The judge slapped
down a gavel and said it was 48 for you, 40 for you?
MARGIE: Forty-eight.
WILLIAMS: Forty-two for you?
JOHN: Forty years.
WILLIAMS: Forty years. That
judge said, `Remanded to the state penitentiary for'...
JOHN: Forty years.
WILLIAMS: ...`40 years.' Four-zero.
JOHN: Four-zero. I'm counting,
`30--Oh, my God.' I'm thinking I'm going to be pretty old if
I ever get out of this mess. That's just what I've been thinking.
I swear to you, I'm counting going, `Uh-oh.'
WILLIAMS: But through this
all, just like Margie, she had to sit there in a room and watch
her children say these things about her.
JOHN: At the preliminary hearing,
my son came in and said, `Hi, Daddy.'
MARGIE: Yeah.
JOHN: `Hi, Daddy!'
MARGIE: Yeah.
JOHN: This is right after they
got done telling the judge how these poor children were so withdrawn
and traumatized.
MARGIE: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. And Jed comes walking
in, `Hi, Daddy!' and they grabbed him, out he went. Came back,
and he never looked at me again ever.
MARGIE: Yeah. Yeah they didn't
even--yeah.
JOHN: What did they say to
my son?
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: And then he testified
without looking at you.
JOHN: Yeah. Never looked at
me. Never again.
WILLIAMS: And I should say--I
should say--let's get this--I don't--how do I get to where we
are today? Let's jump ahead a little bit real quick. Because
he didn't speak to you then. Now let's jump ahead. It started
with you because seven years in, you got out. Now, how did you
get out?
MARGIE: On a technical detail.
WILLIAMS: And what was the
technical detail that got you out of jail?
MARGIE: You know, I don't even
remember. It was just...
JOHN: I do.
MARGIE: Do you? What was it?
JOHN: It was me.
WILLIAMS: It was you?
MARGIE: You did something?
JOHN: I did something that
they didn't do.
WILLIAMS: What?
JOHN: They--right.
MARGIE: Oh, that's right. Yeah.
OK.
JOHN: We all took psychological
examinations within the--MMPI was the big thing.
MARGIE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
JOHN: We took that. We took
lie detectors. We took everything.
MARGIE: See, we passed all
this.
JOHN: We passed all that. And
we're thinking, `Hey, this will be all right. We'll get into
court, judge will go, "Oh, we made a terrible mistake."'
MARGIE: Mm-hmm.
JOHN: Never got to court because
they wouldn't let the guy that gave me the test--they had called
him, then they sent the jury out, and my attorney forgot to put
it on the record. Her attorney didn't. Timmy's attorney didn't.
They got--on Stoll's Evidence is in the laws right in California.
It's called Stoll's Evidence.
MARGIE: That's right. Yeah.
JOHN: They went home on my
evidence, and I sat there.
MARGIE: Yeah.
JOHN: Because my attorney forgot
to mention my name...
WILLIAMS: And it's the fact
of the matter that they didn't...
JOHN: ...forgot to get me in
the thing.
WILLIAMS: So the fact that
they never included all the mitigating information that would
have exonerated you as evidence...
JOHN: Then it's--then it's
no good because it wasn't in trial, Montel. And once it isn't
in trial, then it's--didn't count. It didn't happen if it's not
on--in the trial.
WILLIAMS: But it happened to
the two of you. So that's what got you out.
MARGIE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
WILLIAMS: They just walk in
all of a sudden and said, `Pack your stuff, you need to get out.'
MARGIE: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: `Excuse--excuse me?'
`No, you're leaving today.'
MARGIE: Mm-hmm, right after
the count. I said, `Going back to court?' They said, `No, you're
released.'
WILLIAMS: You're released?
MARGIE: Mm-hmm.
WILLIAMS: And then they just
open up the front door?
MARGIE: Kind of. It was the
longest count ever. I had to wait till afterwards, and it took,
like, hours. Usually, it takes about 15 minutes, but it took,
like, three hours. And they took me to the R&R release and
handed me $200 and said, `We're sorry.'
WILLIAMS: After destroying
her family, taking her children away from her, leaving her locked
up for seven years, `Here's $200, see you.'
Let me take a break. We'll
be back right after this.
(Excerpts from upcoming segment)
WILLIAMS: Look your mother
in the eye. You haven't done it yet. Look her in the eye.
DONALD: No.
WILLIAMS: Lean forward.
MARGIE: We look each other
in the eye.
DONALD: I love my mom.
WILLIAMS: You know what? Take
your hand out of your hand and hold your mom's hand.
DONALD: I don't like doing
that.
WILLIAMS: You know what? Right
now, we're going to figure out how to change that. Because guess
what? If you could hold your mother's hand, guess what? If you
can get close to your mom, those little kids can get you. That's
why you can't hold them. Because you can't let yourself hold
her.
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: I did a Broadway
play last year called "Exonerated."
MARGIE: Oh, that's right.
WILLIAMS: Where I performed
as one of the characters who was released from death row.
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And I'm going to
tell you, just play-acting--play-acting, I walked around angry
for day after day after day, because I had to play this character
who spent three and a half years on death row in Florida for
a crime he didn't commit where it was obviously completely fabricated,
and I walked around the majority of the time doing that play
just mad. I don't get how you can sit here and not be angry,
man.
JOHN: I'm--oh, I'm angry.
WILLIAMS: OK.
JOHN: But it takes too much
effort. I just got out of prison. I'm trying to have a good time
here. I don't want to be miserable.
WILLIAMS: OK. I know you've
spoken to none of the boys...
JOHN: No.
WILLIAMS: ...since you've been
out.
JOHN: Eddie. Eddie--not since
I've been out, no. Eddie came to see me the day after he testified
in the county jail, which was a beautiful thing.
WILLIAMS: He came and said
what?
JOHN: I--he just--he started
to say that--what he said on the stand. He cried on the witness
stand and apologized, said, `I'm sorry, John.'
MARGIE: He didn't do anything.
JOHN: And then when he got
to the--excuse me. And then when he got to the jail, I--before
he said anything, I told him, `You didn't do anything wrong.
I don't want to talk about it. You didn't do anything wrong.
Let's just talk.' And that was it. We talked. Because he didn't
do anything. None of the children did anything.
WILLIAMS: Please welcome Victor,
Ed, Alan and Donald back to the show.
You come around this way.
JOHN: Thanks, man.
Eddie.
ED: What's happening, buddy?
JOHN: Hi, Victor.
WILLIAMS: You know, I look
at--I look at--at--at you guys, and I--and I think in terms of
not just like a family, but I mean, had this never happened,
the six of you might be sitting around here right now talking
about the barbecue that just happened last week over at your
house and the fire blew up or something, you know what I mean?
I'd have you here for another reason. And now you're here. I
know each one of you guys has wanted to say something to John.
What do you want to say? Start with you.
VICTOR: I'm sorry.
MARGIE: Guys don't need to
say anything.
ED: Yeah, I'm just glad that
you could be so OK about everything now. I really worried about
that.
JOHN: Thank you, Eddie.
ED: Yeah.
JOHN: Thank you, Victor.
ALAN: John, I don't know how
you did it.
JOHN: Very carefully.
ALAN: Well, I imagine so. And--and
in fact, I heard some of the stories. I got to talk to people,
and it's amazing how you--you could get by.
WILLIAMS: You know--you know,
since you bring it up--and John, and I don't want you to relive
this, but I got to make you for a second.
JOHN: OK.
WILLIAMS: Why don't you tell
these people? To go to prison in this country today as a child
molester, are you kidding me?
JOHN: Twenty years is a long
time to hide.
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Twenty years, and--and
you--there was--there was--and a lot of times, you didn't get
a chance to hide.
JOHN: No.
MARGIE: And yeah, you want
to go on the main yard because you don't want to be PC'd with
the people who really did it. You know, you don't want to live
with that person. That's what--you know--yeah.
JOHN: That's who you'll end
up with. If you say, `Hey, I'm scared because of my charges.'
Well, they'll just put you with a whole bunch of child molesters.
And the last thing I want to do is spend 20 years with them.
MARGIE: Yeah. Thank you. Exactly.
JOHN: So I just said, `I'm
not PCing nowhere.'
MARGIE: Exactly.
JOHN: `I didn't do anything.
I don't even want to hear it.'
MARGIE: So we both went out.
We went out on the main line.
JOHN: Both went out on the
main line. I stayed on the main line for 20 years.
WILLIAMS: And every once in
awhile, somebody had to...
JOHN: Oh, yes, sir, every once
in awhile.
MARGIE: Anyone would say something.
WILLIAMS: It came up. Guys,
you know...
MARGIE: Aren't they nice boys?
WILLIAMS: If you stop right
now, and you think about it, I mean, I don't know if you know
anything that's happened in their lives.
JOHN: Not really. No.
WILLIAMS: If the six of you
sat down and we wrote out everything that took place in your
lives, and then took those back to the prosecutor or the state,
somebody should probably roll over in their grave trying to figure
out something to do. This is--families destroyed.
MARGIE: Yeah. Yeah.
ALAN: We've all been in our
own prison, you know?
MARGIE: Yes.
JOHN: You bet they have.
ALAN: We--we--we didn't get
the walls, but--but we definitely...
MARGIE: Yes.
ALAN: Still, I still lost 20
years of my life. I don't know, you know--I lost all of the--the
growing up times learning how to be a kid and learning how to
have fun and all that kind of stuff. All that was shot, you know?
So I'm still eight years old as far as my living skills go.
WILLIAMS: Social issues.
ALAN: Sure. You know, we're
still stuck. And...
WILLIAMS: Please welcome John's
attorney and the director of the Innocence Project, Linda Starr.
Welcome her to the show.
Ms. LINDA STARR (Legal Director
Of The Innocence Project): Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Linda, thank you
for being here.
And also welcome another one
of John's attorneys, who's also a director of the Innocence Project,
Mr. Justin Brooks. Welcome him to the show.
Thank you.
The two of you--your project
got involved in this when and how?
Ms. STARR: We got a call from
another attorney who said that he knows we do DNA cases, do we
do other kinds of cases, too? And we said, `Yes, we do.' He said
he had represented some other people from Bakersfield who've
been exonerated in these child sex abuse cases, and he wondered
if we would be interested in representing Mr. Stoll, who he was
certain was innocent. We hadn't met John.
WILLIAMS: And you said?
Ms. STARR: We said, `Well,
we'll look at the material. We'll look at the case and the charges.'
We respected the attorney very much, Mr. Snedeker, so we had
a lot of faith in his recommendation. And when we realized the--the
time period that the case came from in Bakersfield, which was
during this huge wit--witch hunt during that time, and when we
met John, and then when we talked to each of these young men,
we knew that this was a battle we had to fight.
WILLIAMS: How many people got
arrested in Bakersfield at this time? Sixty-something people,
correct?
Ms. STARR: Something like that,
yes, and there were more--there were--some estimates put something
like 200 suspects. Some people just left knowing that they were
going to be in the same situation.
WILLIAMS: This is--this is
a town where the peop--the officials went crazy, and anybody
who blinked, just about, got arrested for child molestation.
MARGIE: You didn't even have
to blink.
WILLIAMS: You didn't have to
blink. Let me take a break. We'll be back right after this.
TEXT:
California Innocence Project
224 Cedar Street San Diego, CA 92101 www.cwsl.edu 619-525-1485
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: When are we going
to get some attorneys to--to step up to the plate and start asking
for prosecutors to go to jail? This seems to me like it would
be a landmark case to go to court and try to sue and get a state
to pass a law that says if, in fact, a prosecutor does this,
you spend the same amount of time in jail that the people you
put in jail spend? This crap will stop. And add something to
it. And the state has to pay a million dollars a day. It's over.
Nobody else is going to jail this way.
Mr. JUSTIN BROOKS (Attorney
For The Innocence Project): Well, you know, good district attorneys,
when you go to them with cases, they do review them, and they
should--part of their job is, you know, justice for the defendant
and to look over the whole system.
WILLIAMS: Well, that's the
dream.
Mr. BROOKS: But at the end
of John's case, the district attorney walked out of the courtroom,
looked into a TV camera and said, `You win some, you lose some.'
And that was the attitude. They fight till the end, and maybe
they win, maybe they lose. But they're going to defend this conviction
as long as they can.
Ms. STARR: And they still do.
WILLIAMS: And they still do?
Ms. STARR: They still defend
the conviction.
WILLIAMS: It's so sad. And
obviously...
Ms. STARR: Even though--they
don't know--you know, these are very brave young men to have
gone forward. Then when they get up as adults to take the stand,
they're ridiculed, accused of lying, accused of being in it for
some other reas--unknown reason, accused of doing it for some
deep-rooted psychological problem. They--they can't win.
Mr. BROOKS: We're--we're law
school clinics, where we have volunteer law students looking
into these cases, and you're right. This is something the government
should be doing.
Ms. STARR: Right.
Mr. BROOKS: When you have to
have little teams of law students--and we have 168,000 inmates
in California, more than most countries in the world, we just
have in the state of California--and we have to review those,
and it's left to us to go in and clean up this mess. And usually,
even after those exonerations, they still don't go back to look
for the right guy. They still don't admit they made a mistake.
WILLIAMS: Now--now, I got to
say this, because in John's case, recantation by everybody except
for one.
MARGIE: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And because that
one didn't recant, you weren't exonerated. You were let out.
Correct?
Ms. STARR: Well, what they
did was they reversed his conviction.
JOHN: No. They reversed my
conviction.
WILLIAMS: Reversed the conviction.
Ms. STARR: And they said they
couldn't--they--they were given the opportunity to re-prosecute.
If they could get the son to testify again as to what it was,
they would--they could re-prosecute it. But he has no recollection
of anything ever happening. So they end up having to dismiss
all the charges for having nobody to testify against him.
WILLIAMS: But you don't have
to register as a sex offender.
JOHN: Oh, no. No.
Ms. STARR: No.
WILLIAMS: Neither do you?
MARGIE: No, but I wasn't--my
wasn't--my conviction wasn't turned--overturned. I just got out
on a technicality. So legally...
WILLIAMS: You're still guilty?
MARGIE: Yes, absolutely.
WILLIAMS: And so--but they
have not made you register as a sex offender.
MARGIE: Right.
WILLIAMS: But the state could
step in and say, `Where you been?'
MARGIE: Yes, they could. Yes.
WILLIAMS: And how ignorant
is this? Let me take a break. We'll be back.
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: You know what? I--I
want to take a break here for a second from--from just this discussion.
And--and this may seem a little odd, but, ladies and gentlemen,
please give it up for John.
And I think the strength that
you have shown--over the top. I'm having you back. I want you
back on this show. I want you to come back, because we're going
to have some people from this same town here back on the show
as soon as we can gather some more together. Because this story
needs to be told. And this is an example of why some of the things
in this country need to change.
And this is what--I'm going
to ask the two of you guys. You know, do me a favor. I'm going
to send you backstage, too. So give it up for Ed and Victor,
also. All three of you guys, go backstage for a second.
You know why? Because I'm going
to keep you guys around. Mom, move over a chair, for a second.
Mom, move over a chair. You move over a chair.
MARGIE: OK, you guys.
WILLIAMS: Why won't you move
over a chair? Because, see, ladies and gentlemen, one of the
things that's happened here is that, since this incident took
place, the three of you have spoken about this, what, once? In
20 years?
ALAN: When?
WILLIAMS: I think only the
two of you, and it was only a momentary comment.
MARGIE: Yeah.
DONALD: One time I--I had written
a poem explaining how I felt about this situation, and--and in
the poem, it said that I lied, and I cried, and I put my mom
there, innocently in prison for seven years, or something right
about like that. And I accidentally left it out on my--on my
dresser when I was in high school. Was going through it, you
know, looking at it, and trying not to be mad about the situation.
Read the poem, just left it out. While I was at school, Mom--Mom
came in and put my clothes on my bed. You know, folded the clothes
on the bed and was walking out and saw it, and that was the only
time I spoke--we spoke about it. She brought me in the room.
I thought I was in--in trouble. Says, `I need to talk to you.'
And she says, `I found this poem that you had written.' And I--the
only thing she said was, `We never blamed you kids.' And I said,
`I know, Ma, and we know you didn't do it.' And that was our
conversation.
WILLIAMS: And now, guys, what
do you say? You're trapped at eight. You've been trapped. We
can't go back and erase it.
DONALD: No.
ALAN: I still...
WILLIAMS: I saw--huh?
ALAN: I--I--I--I don't know
how, after 20 years, still to look my mother in the face, in
the eyes. I mean, after--I--I didn't have the guilt feelings.
They--they convinced me that my mother was a child molester,
and only until recently had I even considered that it may have
not happened. And after 20 years, I have a hard time, you know,
connecting with my mother because there's this big something
in the way.
WILLIAMS: But you know what?
That's been sitting there for 20 years because the three of you
haven't figured out a way to work on it, damn it.
ALAN: Well, there's no school
for this.
WILLIAMS: There is no school,
but you know what there is? There's a way to sit and talk. Let
me take a break. We'll be back right after this.
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: Please welcome Dr.
Alicia Salzer to the show.
Doc, come here. Yeah, that's
OK.
Dr. Salzer's the--the director
of our Aftercare Program, and I didn't even expect to bring you
out here, but I'm bringing you out here. So hold onto the microphone
for a minute. But he's saying there's no school. It's not a school
that you need.
MARGIE: There's no handbook.
WILLIAMS: There's no handbook.
It's--because this has never been written before, I don't think.
And they may find something--and she could find something in
a book that may come close. But it's not about a book. It's about
the three of you. Has this woman molested you or done anything
to you in the last 17 years of your life?
ALAN: No.
WILLIAMS: Has she done anything
disparaging whatsoever toward you in the last 17 years?
ALAN: Absolutely not.
WILLIAMS: So then maybe if
you approached this to begin with--not from a forgiveness standpoint,
but you know what? You said it yourself--`I don't know the truth.'
But what you have now is reality, and this is real, so base your
truth on this day forward.
Dr. ALICIA J. SALZER (Director
of Aftercare, "The Montel Williams Show"): And I watched
you guys talking, and John, too. Such a pleasant guy, such a
likable guy. So, you know, just where's the anger? Where's the
anger? I feel it. I've been furious watching this whole show.
I know you guys have been furious (to the audience), and I know
you are furious (to Montel). I see it. I see it in your eyes.
And I think that sometimes,
to try to spare your children the pain of what you've been through,
to not put any more guilt on them than you already see in their
eyes, you bury the anger.
MARGIE: Yeah.
Dr. SALZER: You know, you hide
it away. `Everything's fine. Jail, shmail. You know, it's over.
Let's move forward. Let's be a family.' But you haven't moved
forward to be a family because you guys can't look each other
in the eye. And yet I see so much love there. I see you guys
holding each other's hands. I don't see you pulling your hand
away from her. I know that...
DONALD: No, I love her. I just
don't...
Dr. SALZER: I know that there's
love there. And I think the thing to get in touch with is the
anger. You've buried it for so long because you couldn't live
with it. It would eat you up. If you don't get in touch with
that and get it out, all you're going to have is this tight,
bottled-up, tears overflowing, sad, scared feeling that you guys
have been living with.
DONALD: I actually feel more
comfortable with my kids around my mom than I do around my kids.
WILLIAMS: You know, but see,
let me tell you something. One of the things that she has said
you have to get in touch with is this anger and this rage, OK?
I'm sorry. I think you also got to get in touch with the anger--the
way you are so angry at yourself. Watch this. Not only are you
mad at yourself--and you've been mad at yourself for the last
20 years for doing this to your mother. Watch this.
DONALD: And John.
WILLIAMS: And John. You've
been mad, OK? Because you don't know. But I can guarantee you
that you've been mad at her. Watch this. Why? Because even though
you did it, she still abandoned you. She still left you by yourself.
You thought for sure if you told the truth, she was going to
come home.
DONALD: Absolutely.
WILLIAMS: And she didn't. That's
the lie that you've held onto longer than the rest of them. Because
you kept--you've said it over and over again in each--the pre-interview.
You said it here. You thought she was coming home, and she didn't.
So it's OK to be mad about that. You stopped yourself from being
angry because you think you put her there.
You haven't even been angry
because you didn't do nothing wrong. And they don't know whether
it was true or not. But let it go. You guys are going to have
to do that because one of these days, you're going to be able
to look right over there like that and look her right dead in
the eye and not look at the floor.
Mom, look back. Look him back.
Look him back.
MARGIE: Get over here so I
can see.
WILLIAMS: Oh, you got to lean
forward some because she can't move her neck.
MARGIE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Look her back. Look
her back.
Look at him. Turn around. Look
at your other son.
Look your mother in the eye.
You haven't done it yet. Look her in the eye. Lean forward.
MARGIE: We look each other
in the eye.
DONALD: I love my mom.
WILLIAMS: You know what, take
your hand out of your hand and hold your mom's hand.
DONALD: I don't like doing
that.
WILLIAMS: You know what? But
right now, we're going to figure out how to change that. Because
guess what? If you could hold your mother's hand, guess what?
If you can get close to your mom, those little kids will come
to you. That's why you can't hold them, because you can't let
yourself hold her. That's it, bud. I'm telling you.
I'm going to take a break.
We'll be back right after this.
(Announcements)
WILLIAMS: You know, we're out
of time, and I have to thank all of our guests for being here.
And this will be a topic that we will do again, no question.
Before we go out of here--and
I talked to Dr. Salzer. One of the things that she thinks might
do you both a little good.
(To Donald) I'm going to start
with you, sir. Part of what you might want to consider doing
is when you look in that mirror--and you said it. You were trapped
at eight. I'll tell you, the both of you are trapped at the same
place you were when your mom was snatched. Because it's not just
about you. You got how many kids at home?
DONALD: Two.
WILLIAMS: You don't have a
relationship right now, do you?
ALAN: No.
WILLIAMS: Of course not. And--and
part of this is all of that. You know that.
ALAN: You betcha.
WILLIAMS: Your life stays here
unless we can step you forward. It isn't easy. I'm sorry. It's
not. But who the hell am I? Except for somebody who just wants
you guys to move forward, and you can.
I'm out of time. Join us on
the next MONTEL.
|
Truth can never be
told so as to be understood, and not be believ'd. William Blake, The Proverbs of Hell
