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Superintendant
Brian Dueck finally dropped his appeal July 18, 2004 | Final
judgment: Dec. 30, 2003 | injusticebusters'
daily reports
101
1 538 Q And did you tell Mr.
Miazga that you believed
2 them to be true?
3 A I don't recall whether
we had that conversation
4 or not. I know Mr. Miazga
also interviewed
5 social workers who were involved
with that. So
6 I have no idea.
7 539 Q And again, all we have
to do is look at P-1 to
8 see if there's any notes
regarding the incidents
9 out at the school. What school
was it exactly,
10 what was the name of the
school?
11 A Warman Elementary.
12 540 Q And as it relates
to the Warman Elementary
13 School you believe that
Michael probably did
14 assault other children?
15 A I would suggest at his
age we would call it
16 engage in sexual activity
with other children
17 his own age.
18 541 Q And you don't recollect
imparting that
19 information to Mr. Miazga?
20 A I don't recollect that
at all, no. I know Mr.
21 Miazga was aware of what
Michael was doing.
22 542 Q And you don't recollect
whether or not you
23 followed up to find out
whether the RCMP had
24 investigated these matters?
25 A No, I didn't.
26 543 Q And you did not follow
up to determine whether
102
1 the school was taking measures
against Michael
2 to keep him from other children?
3 A I believe there were a
lot of measures in place
4 that I was told about, teacher
aides, the
5 Thompson children, the older
children, going to
6 school to assist with these
children.
7 544 Q Maybe we'll just continue
along these lines. I
8 see it's getting to be 12:05.
There's a lot of
9 measures, you said, that
were being taken
10 against Michael --
11 A Against all of the children.
12 545 Q Let's deal only with
Michael, there's a lot of
13 measures, would you say
there's a lot of
14 measures against Michael,
he's the one abusing
15 other children or having
sexual relations with
16 the other children?
17 A I think there were also
allegations that the
18 girls were sexually active.
19 546 Q As it relates to Michael,
do you know what some
20 of these measures were other
than teachers'
21 aides?
22 A No, I don't. You'd have
to talk to Social
23 Services about that.
24 547 Q But your evidence
was that there were lots of
25 measures.
26 A Well I know that the Thompsons
were trying
103
1 different things in their
home, there were
2 different programs that Carol
Bunko-Ruys was
3 trying with them. They had
teacher aides in the
4 school with them.
5 548 Q And as it relates to
the teachers' aides, how
6 were they going to help in
keeping Michael away
7 from other children?
8 A Well, I think that was
the whole idea, that they
9 would be there with him wherever
he went.
10 549 Q And as it relates
to the Thompsons, what
11 measures were they going
to take, as it relates
12 to Michael, to keep him
away from other
13 children?
14 A I have no idea.
15 550 Q You have no idea even
today?
16 A No.
17 551 Q And as it relates
to Bunko-Ruys, who you were
18 working with, what measures
did she recommend be
19 taken to keep Michael away
from other children?
20 A Again, that would be --
you'd have to ask Bunko-
21 Ruys that.
22 552 Q Well you'd certainly
want to have that
23 information, wouldn't you,
before you saw Mr.
24 Hinz or Mr. Miazga so that
they would be in a
25 position to understand the
nature of the
26 complainant, Michael Ross?
104
1 A I think they understood
very -- I think Mr.
2 Miazga understood very clearly
the nature of the
3 complainant.
4 553 Q So you think he did?
5 A Right. There are allegations
in the tapes of
6 Michael being sexually active
with his own
7 sisters.
8 554 Q Yes.
9 A I mean, obviously, Mr.
Miazga's aware of that.
10 I think it's very obvious
that all three of
11 these children were sexually
active and that Mr.
12 Miazga and Ms. Hansen were
aware of that.
13 555 Q All right. So what
you're saying, then, is that
14 you think that Matt Miazga
would be aware. You
15 can't speak for Matt Miazga,
though, can you?
16 A That's right.
17 556 Q But how Matt Miazga
becomes aware of anything
18 would depend partly on you
as the investigating
19 officer?
20 A I think partly, yes.
21 557 Q And who supervised
you to make sure that
22 everything that you were
doing was being done
23 according to protocol?
24 A Well, I had Staff Sergeant
Johnson, was the
25 staff sergeant in charge
at that time. John
26 Quinn was the inspector,
he's now the chief in
105
1 P.A. I would assume those
would be my
2 supervisors.
3 MR. BORDEN: All right. We'll
just leave it
4 there, then, and come back
at what time, it's
5 your prerogative, you're
out of town, so --
6 MR. GERRAND: Sure. Could
you give me some
7 indication -- certainly,
I'm prepared to put on
8 the record, I appreciate
that Mr. Klassen isn't
9 represented by counsel, I'm
prepared to agree
10 that the examination for
discovery that you are
11 conducting can be adopted
by Mr. Klassen.
12 MR. BORDEN: I'll let Mr.
Klassen speak for
13 himself, I don't represent
him. All I'm saying
14 is today I interview your
client, Brian Dueck,
15 on behalf of my clients
and that this probably
16 will go on today and tomorrow,
and hopefully,
17 we'll be finished tomorrow.
But I have to let
18 Mr. Klassen speak for himself.
19 MR. GERRAND: So just in
terms of timing, we'll
20 anticipate that you're going
to be this after-
21 noon and if we start at
1:30 how long would you
22 anticipate wanting to go
this afternoon, till
23 3:30 or 4:00?
24 MR. BORDEN: Sure, and then
tomorrow we'll
25 start again.
26 MR. GERRAND: 10:00 to 12:00,
1:30 to 3:30 or
106
1 4:00?
2 MR. BORDEN: Yeah.
3 MR. GERRAND: You anticipate
that you'll be
4 that long yourself?
5 MR. BORDEN: Oh, yes. I haven't
even started
6 with our documents, Mr. Gerrand,
I'm just trying
7 to get some of the backdrop
here to this case.
8 MR. GERRAND: Okay, you think
you're going to
9 be at least those two days.
Well, I guess we'll
10 take it from there and see
what develops after
11 tomorrow afternoon is done.
12 MR. BORDEN: And then, again,
Mr. Klassen --
13 you can make inquiries of
Mr. Klassen at that
14 time what he intends to
do and what his position
15 is on anything.
16 MR. GERRAND: Okay.
17 (Examination recessed from
12:10 p.m. to 1:40 p.m.)
18 558 Q MR. BORDEN: So, I
remind you that you are
19 under oath and just resuming
your examination
20 for discovery.
21 A Sure.
22 559 Q Your answers continue
to be binding upon you in
23 these proceedings.
24 A I want to make a point
here. In reviewing this
25 report this morning -- you
asked about how the
26 events unfolded with Taco
Time, and in reviewing
107
1 this report I have to change
what I said in that
2 I did meet these children
before that. It was
3 as a result of a file that
another member had
4 investigated and I was contacted
by Social
5 Services then, did an interview
with four
6 children, nothing came of
that, and then it was
7 left and the Taco Time meeting
came later. It
8 was a mistake on my part,
I was mixed up between
9 the '89 one there and the
'90 where I started
10 the interviewing with the
children. I just want
11 that to be on record.
12 560 Q Have you had the opportunity
to review Exhibit
13 P-1?
14 A The whole file?
15 561 Q Yes.
16 A I received this Monday
at noon and tried my best
17 to get through all of these
documents and,
18 unfortunately, no, I didn't
-- I mean we're
19 talking 13 years here.
20 562 Q Would you, then, undertake
to review Exhibit P-1
21 and the video tapes of your
interviews with the
22 children of October-November
of 1990 after these
23 examinations for discovery
and undertake to let
24 us know at a very early
time whether some of the
25 evidence that you may have
given here is really
26 inconsistent with those
reports?
108
1 MR. GERRAND: We'll certainly
do that with
2 respect to Exhibit P-1. I
don't know that
3 there's been any evidence
given with respect to
4 the video tapes.
5 UNDERTAKING #2: REVIEW EXHIBIT
P-1 & ADVISE IF ANY
6 EVIDENCE GIVEN BY SUPERINTENDENT
DUECK IS INCONSISTENT
7 WITH IT
8 MR. BORDEN: That's very true,
Mr. Gerrand,
9 but I'm not finished this
examination for
10 discovery.
11 MR. GERRAND: Fair enough.
12 563 Q MR. BORDEN: After
the Klassens and Kvellos
13 were charged who uttered
the words "scandal of
14 the century"?
15 A Gosh, I don't know. I
was interviewed by many
16 media outlets. I really
don't know.
17 564 Q After the charges
were laid the media was at
18 your door?
19 A They were at my door before
the charges were
20 laid, long before.
21 565 Q And the only parties
up to that point in time
22 that would have had an intimate
understanding of
23 this file would be you,
Sergeant [sic] Dueck at
24 the time, Matt Miazga, Sonja
Hansen, Carol
25 Bunko-Ruys?
26 A I would say, yeah.
109
1 566 Q Could you add to that
list any other party that
2 may have had an intimate
knowledge of that file?
3 A I mentioned this morning
Liz Newton and Diane
4 Ens I would suggest would.
5 567 Q Now do you recall ever
saying to the media that
6 this matter involving the
Klassens and Kvellos
7 and these charges related
to witchcraft?
8 A That these charges related
to witchcraft?
9 568 Q Yes.
10 A Not with the Klassens
and Kvellos, I would have
11 never said that. In fact,
I don't believe I
12 would have said that to
anyone.
13 569 Q That's fair. Did you
ever say words to that
14 effect, for instance, that
these charges against
15 the Klassens and Kvellos
related to rituals, or
16 satanic rituals?
17 A No.
18 570 Q So if those words
were uttered to the press it
19 would not be by you?
20 A I don't believe so.
21 571 Q Because you've always
been of the view that if
22 there's any rituals it would
have involved the
23 natural mother and father
and the boyfriend, Don
24 White?
25 A That's right.
26 572 Q Now, did you read
some of these news stories?
110
1 A Yes.
2 573 Q So would you have read
the news stories after
3 your interviews?
4 A I probably did, I don't
recall reading them all.
5 574 Q And if you had seen
words to the effect that the
6 Klassens and the Kvellos
were involved in
7 witchcraft would you have
taken steps to ensure
8 that there was no misunderstanding?
9 MR. GERRAND: I don't think
the witness should
10 answer the question. You're
asking him to
11 speculate about something
that he hasn't
12 indicated he even read.
13 575 Q MR. BORDEN: You did
say, though, that you
14 read the news stories, particularly
in the Star
15 Phoenix after the charges
were laid, did you
16 not?
17 A I read some of them, yes.
18 576 Q Some of the ones very
shortly after the charges
19 were laid, as a matter of
fact, is that correct?
20 A That's right.
21 577 Q Did you advise any
officer or employee of the
22 StarPhoenix that there was
a misrepresentation
23 in any of those stories?
24 A No.
25 578 Q I'm going back to
the words "scandal of the
26 century," was that
ever used by Matt Miazga
111
1 prior to the laying of the
charges?
2 A I have no idea.
3 579 Q Or by Terry Hinz?
4 A I have no idea.
5 580 Q But what you do have
an idea of is that you did
6 not employ those words?
7 A I don't believe I did,
no.
8 581 Q Did you believe at
the time when you saw those
9 words, "scandal of the
century," as used by the
10 media, that it was, in fact,
so, it was a
11 scandal?
12 A No, I didn't. I felt that
was very sensation-
13 alized.
14 582 Q Did you let anyone
know what your belief was at
15 that time, that it was sensationalized?
16 A In the media?
17 583 Q Yes.
18 A No.
19 584 Q There were a number
of people that Michael
20 alleged had assaulted him,
I want to go through
21 a list with you, because
there's going to be
22 another list later on, and
you can just say yes
23 or no to this list of the
people that Michael
24 said assaulted him sexually.
Dennis Kvello?
25 A Yes.
26 585 Q Diane Kvello?
112
1 A Yes.
2 586 Q Sheldon Kvello?
3 A Yes.
4 587 Q Sherry Kvello?
5 A Yes.
6 588 Q Richard Klassen?
7 A Yes.
8 589 Q Kari Klassen?
9 A Yes.
10 590 Q Pamela Klassen?
11 A Yes.
12 591 Q Marie Klassen?
13 A Yes.
14 592 Q John Klassen?
15 A Yes.
16 593 Q Myrna Klassen?
17 A Yes.
18 594 Q Peter Dale Klassen?
19 A Yes.
20 595 Q Anita Janine Klassen?
21 A Yes.
22 596 Q And I've just read
the names of the plaintiffs
23 from our pleadings. There
were, however, a
24 number of other people that
Michael said he had
25 sexual relations with, or
other people that he
26 had been abused by?
113
1 A M'hm.
2 597 Q Do you have a list
of those other people?
3 A There should be in one
of these documents here,
4 yes.
5 598 Q Can you help us with
that?
6 A Oh, gosh. Well, I mean,
his birth parents,
7 Donald White.
8 MR. GERRAND: No, the question
was do you know
9 if there's a list?
10 A Yeah. I have a list of
names -- I'd have to go
11 through it, I don't know
exactly where it is,
12 it's in the documents, though.
13 599 Q MR. BORDEN: We'll
come back to that list
14 later. When Michael first
disclosed any kind of
15 sexual abuse to himself
after you were involved,
16 did he start off by saying
it was anyone of the
17 plaintiffs?
18 A No, he started off with
his parents.
19 600 Q Did he start off by
mentioning anybody that may
20 have lived in Southern Saskatchewan?
21 A Yes.
22 601 Q What was the name
of that person?
23 A I don't think he started
with them. His
24 grandparents.
25 602 Q Which grandparents
were those?
26 A In Weyburn, I believe.
114
1 603 Q Yes.
2 A And I believe he mentioned
an aunt or an uncle
3 down in Weyburn.
4 604 Q Did Michael say, according
to your recollection,
5 that they had made him put
his penis in their
6 bum?
7 A I don't recall exactly
what he said.
8 605 Q Did you think it would
be necessary to go down
9 south and perhaps visit some
of those people?
10 A Well, we discussed that,
doing that, but looked
11 at the age he would have
been then and the
12 amount of disclosure made,
and it was decided at
13 that time that we would
stick with what was most
14 recent and go with that.
15 606 Q All right. So that
in terms of this issue of
16 credibility, you were looking
at the remoteness
17 in time?
18 A Right.
19 607 Q And that if there
was any disclosure that
20 related to more recent events,
those would be
21 the ones you focussed on?
22 A That's right.
23 608 Q If I may see Exhibit
P-1, please? Sometimes, as
24 you know, as a police officer,
people don't know
25 who the assailant is?
26 A Right.
115
1 609 Q They may not know who
robbed the bank; is that
2 correct?
3 A Right.
4 610 Q So you would want to
determine whether the
5 person knew the identity
of the assailant; is
6 that correct?
7 A Sure.
8 611 Q What steps did you
take to ensure that Michael
9 knew, for instance, the person,
Dennis Kvello?
10 A What steps did we take?
11 612 Q M'hm.
12 A I believe because he knew
the name, because he
13 knew the rest of the family,
that that was
14 sufficient for me.
15 613 Q So since he knew the
name that would be the
16 starting point?
17 A M'hm.
18 614 Q How do you know he
knew the name?
19 A He knew the first name.
Well, again, it's in
20 the disclosure, in the transcripts
of the tapes.
21 615 Q All right. So one
could look at those tapes to
22 determine how you knew or
determined that he
23 could identify these people?
24 A That he knew who they
were, yes.
25 616 Q If we look at Diane
Kvello, I take it the same
26 thing would apply, all we
have to do is look at
116
1 those tapes of the interviews?
2 A Well, understand here,
we're talking about
3 interviews with three different
children,
4 multiple interviews, I can't
remember exactly
5 who said the last name. I
know they all knew
6 the first name. I recall
that one of them used
7 Klassen as a last name for
Dennis and Diane, I
8 can't recall which one.
9 617 Q Now people learn names
without meeting people?
10 A Sure.
11 618 Q You know names of
people, I'm sure, without
12 having met them?
13 A M'hm.
14 619 Q How did you know when
Michael mentioned Dennis
15 Kvello that Michael knew
who he was talking
16 about?
17 A Because he related it
to Dale and Anita, that it
18 was a relative. He knew
the children, the names
19 of the children, he knew
that they had foster
20 children.
21 620 Q Do you recall asking
a question as it relates to
22 a Richard Klassen, about
identity?
23 A Do I recall asking a question?
24 621 Q Yes, a specific question.
25 A No, I don't.
26 622 Q So that would mean
you haven't reviewed those
117
1 tapes before you came here?
2 A I've reviewed them, but
again, we're talking 12
3 to 13 years and three different
complainants
4 here. I can't remember specific
questions.
5 Again, they're in the transcripts.
6 623 Q Well what we have,
for the record, is CDs and
7 DVDs of the actual interviews
of the children.
8 A Sure.
9 624 Q And in order to prepare
for this we went through
10 those. I take it that when
you say you went
11 through them you're talking
about 13 years ago?
12 A No, I've tried to get
through all of the
13 transcripts of the interviews
before this
14 started.
15 625 Q Does it ring a bell
that when questions were
16 asked about Richard Klassen
that Richard [sic]
17 gave the age 41 years?
18 MR. GERRAND: Richard?
19 MR. BORDEN: Yes.
20 MR. GERRAND: Richard gave
the age 41 years?
21 626 Q MR. BORDEN: I'm sorry.
Do you recall that
22 when Michael was describing
Richard Klassen that
23 Michael gave to you the
age 41 years?
24 A I don't recall that specifically.
25 627 Q Do you recall him
describing Richard Klassen?
26 A I don't recall that specifically,
no.
118
1 628 Q Do you remember him
describing Richard as being
2 bald on one part with hair
on the other?
3 A No, I don't.
4 629 Q Did you ask questions,
then, at any time other
5 than on those tapes to ensure
that the ages of
6 the parties were appropriate?
7 A Well, we're talking about
eight- and ten-year-
8 old children here, I'm not
sure they could be
9 terribly accurate in guessing
age.
10 630 Q Right. So if you can't
be terribly accurate in
11 guessing age then one would
want to look at
12 other mannerisms that people
might have had or
13 other attributes, physical
attributes that they
14 may have had. Did you make
those inquiries to
15 make sure that when they
used the word Dennis
16 Kvello they had the right
guy?
17 A No.
18 MR. BORDEN: I think here,
Mr. Gerrand,
19 Exhibit P-1, and as you
will all note, it's not
20 attached well, Exhibit 531(a)
is separate from
21 all of the other documents
attached to number
22 531(b). However, I'm going
to look now at the
23 top of Exhibit P-1 and review
these particular
24 names.
25 631 Q What you said in an
investigation report was
26 that there were possible
victims, birth children
119
1 of suspects. And then you
say, I believe, and
2 let's make sure that that
is, in fact, your
3 report.
4 A Okay.
5 MR. GERRAND: What's the question?
6 632 Q MR. BORDEN: I quote:
"Information from
7 disclosures of victims interviewed
previously
8 indicate the following children
are victims
9 themselves or have been acting
out sexually."
10 A Okay.
11 633 Q And then you give
the name Trevor Klassen, son
12 of Peter Dale and Anita
Klassen. Did you get
13 that from a disclosure as
well, from the
14 children?
15 A That's right.
16 634 Q And was it the case
with Jackie Klassen?
17 A That's right.
18 635 Q Travis Klassen?
19 A That's right.
20 636 Q And each and every
other party mentioned on that
21 particular list?
22 A That's right.
23 637 Q Nine in number; is
that correct?
24 A That's right.
25 638 Q What you're saying
is that it appears that these
26 people are victims themselves?
120
1 A I would suggest that I
would change that to they
2 could be possible victims
because of their
3 activity with these children,
or alleged
4 activity with these children.
5 639 Q But nevertheless, this
is the document you gave
6 to the prosecutors; is that
correct?
7 A That's right.
8 640 Q The second document
-- and we're going to have
9 to spend some time because
this is the package
10 you gave to the prosecutor
-- is marked as
11 number 531(b). It's called
a Continuation
12 Report. Just so it's easier
for you and so we
13 don't have to pass it back
and forth, I'm just
14 going to quote in the context
of my question. I
15 quote here your words: "In
December, 1989
16 Michael Ross was removed
from the Peter Dale and
17 Anita Klassen foster home
and placed in a parent
18 therapy home of Lyle and
Marilyn Thompson of 120
19 Kenora Street, Warman, Saskatchewan."
Kenora
20 spelled with a K. "Shortly
after having moved
21 to the Thompson home Michael
Ross began
22 disclosing sexual abuse
by numerous people to
23 himself and to his sisters.
These people
24 including his birth parents
Donald and Helen
25 Ross, one Donald White,
Peter Dale and Anita
26 Klassen, Peter Klassen,
Senior, Pamela Klassen,
121
1 as well as numerous other
people."
2 Would it be fair to say that
it
3 was Michael, then, that first
disclosed? And
4 that means as we look at
Michelle Ross, Kathy
5 Ross and Michael Ross, that
it was Michael that
6 first disclosed about sexual
abuse?
7 A Yes.
8 641 Q Now it goes on to state,
and I quote: "Because
9 of these disclosures the
Department of Social
10 Services decided to remove
the remaining foster
11 children from the Peter
Dale and Anita Klassen
12 foster home and from Pamela
Klassen's foster
13 home." Would you agree
with that statement
14 today?
15 A That's right.
16 642 Q And so if I put it
to you that, in fact, it was
17 Kathy Ross that disclosed
before Michael, would
18 you say I'm wrong?
19 A No, I would suggest that's
the information I was
20 given. Because those disclosures
there didn't
21 come from my interviews
they came from Social
22 Services.
23 643 Q Because the reason
that the girls were actually
24 removed from the Dale and
Anita Klassen home was
25 because of Michael's disclosures;
is that not
26 correct?
122
1 A That's what I understand,
yeah.
2 644 Q And you being the investigating
officer, you
3 would know?
4 A Well, that's the information
I was given.
5 645 Q Now, was this removal
with your approval, did
6 they ask you before they
removed Michelle and
7 Kathy from the Anita and
Dale Klassen home
8 whether that was all right
with you?
9 A No.
10 646 Q Social Services did
this of their or its own
11 accord?
12 A I assume so.
13 647 Q It states: "This
removal occurred on May 29th,
14 1990." Is that the
best of your recollection?
15 A Yes.
16 648 Q Prior to Michelle
and Kathy being removed to the
17 Thompson home were they
under the care of Carol
18 Bunko-Ruys?
19 A I don't know.
20 649 Q So you have no idea?
21 A No idea.
22 650 Q And from your review
of Exhibit P-1, it wouldn't
23 have helped?
24 A Well, you mentioned earlier
that maybe I needed
25 to review it again and I
agree with that. So I
26 haven't had the opportunity
to do that.
123
1 651 Q I want to now talk
to you generally before we
2 get into Exhibit P-1 and
its many documents, the
3 matter of your previous investigation.
You had
4 stipulated or stated this
morning that there was
5 another investigation, is
that correct, that you
6 were involved in, involving
these same children?
7 A Another investigation?
8 652 Q Yes.
9 A Well, it was an offshoot
that occurred after
10 Peter Klassen, Senior, pleaded
guilty to another
11 case which at that time
I had no knowledge of.
12 From that I interviewed
four children, being
13 Crystal Morin and the three
Ross children.
14 There were no disclosures
at that time and it
15 was then left, and then
it unfolded from there.
16 653 Q By the way, did you
tell Matt that you had
17 already been involved --
I'm talking about Matt
18 Miazga, by the way -- had
already been involved
19 in another investigation?
20 A I don't consider it another,
I consider it a
21 continuation of this one.
22 654 Q What was the time
frame for the other
23 investigation involving
Crystal Heinrichs and
24 the three Ross children?
25 A Late 1989.
26 655 Q So it was late 1989;
is that correct?
124
1 A Right.
2 656 Q Your testimony this
morning was you had met
3 Michael for basically the
first time at the Taco
4 Time --
5 A Right.
6 657 Q -- in Saskatoon.
7 A That's right. And that's
what I corrected
8 earlier. That, in fact, I
had met him in this
9 interview the first time
in late '89. I had the
10 time right but the location
was wrong.
11 658 Q And would it be fair
to say that when you first
12 met him that he mentioned
things about making
13 sure everything was safe
and then he would have
14 a lot to tell about the
Dale and Anita Klassen
15 home?
16 A No, that happened at the
Taco Time.
17 659 Q All right. So this
is extremely important
18 stuff, I have to go back
and make sure we all
19 understand the time frame.
We have the fall of
20 1989, you've met Michael
for the first time; is
21 that correct?
22 A Right.
23 660 Q Michael doesn't disclose
anything in the fall of
24 1989?
25 A That's right.
26 661 Q Indeed, he doesn't
disclose anything until the
125
1 year 1990?
2 A That's right.
3 662 Q So in 1989 Michelle
and Kathy meet with you?
4 A That's right.
5 663 Q And they don't disclose?
6 A That's right.
7 664 Q As a matter of fact,
they say nothing at all
8 about anything happening
sexually in the Kvello
9 or Klassen homes?
10 A That's right.
11 665 Q And how long did you
spend with them in relation
12 to this particular investigation?
13 A Not very long, they were
short interviews.
14 666 Q And Crystal Heinrichs,
did she say anything
15 involving sexual abuse or
anything of a sexual
16 nature in relation to the
Kvello or Klassen
17 homes?
18 A In 1989?
19 667 Q Yes.
20 A No.
21 668 Q So that now you have
had some knowledge of these
22 parties?
23 A M'hm.
24 669 Q You now know Michael
and you know Michelle, you
25 know Kathy?
26 A Right.
126
1 670 Q And you know Crystal
Heinrichs. And you,
2 obviously, were investigating
something, so what
3 was that, in 1989?
4 A In 1989?
5 671 Q Yes.
6 A It was a result, because
of Peter Klassen
7 pleading guilty to the charges
of sexual assault
8 against two children, I believe
it was the
9 Kehler (phonetic) girls,
that had been
10 investigated by Sergeant
Reid. There was a
11 concern by Social Services
regarding other
12 children, or the children
in these homes, and
13 those, I assume, were the
homes that Peter
14 Klassen had access or contact
with. Those
15 children were brought in
for that first, initial
16 interview, there were no
disclosures there. It
17 was then left. And I had
no more contact with
18 Social Services or them
until the spring of
19 1990.
20 672 Q Did you bring with
you a copy of that occurrence
21 report, where you did the
1989 investigation?
22 A No, I did not. At that
time -- and that was
23 policy -- there were many
times when there was a
24 non-disclosure and nothing
happened, there was
25 no report left.
26 673 Q Or there were many
times where nothing had
127
1 happened so, therefore, no
report was left?
2 A That's right.
3 674 Q If we go back to 1989,
I just want to get some
4 backdrop to it. Who was it
that contacted you
5 and asked you to meet with
the four children?
6 A Well it was the social
worker, and I really
7 don't recall which one it
was. As I said
8 earlier there were many that
were involved and I
9 can't remember which one.
10 675 Q Now is there anything
that you can review in the
11 next week or so that might
help you refresh your
12 memory as to who that person
was. Do you have
13 any notes?
14 A No, I don't.
15 676 Q Someone was concerned
that Peter Klassen had
16 been in jail and now he
was out again; is that
17 correct?
18 A No, I think he had just
pleaded guilty to the
19 first charges.
20 677 Q So, as far as you
knew, he was in jail?
21 A I don't recall.
22 678 Q Do you recall what
the specific concern was
23 regarding these four children?
24 A At that time?
25 679 Q Yes.
26 A The concern was the possible
contact he had had
128
1 with them.
2 680 Q Fine. Now, as far as
you know, in 1989, had any
3 one of those children, that
being Michelle Ross,
4 Kathy Ross, Michael Ross
or Crystal Heinrichs,
5 did anyone of them allege
to the best of your
6 understanding that Peter
had touched them?
7 A No.
8 681 Q So this was just a
matter of making inquiries to
9 make sure everything was
all right?
10 A I would say so, yes.
11 682 Q And someone from Social
Services asked you to
12 make those inquiries, is
that correct, as you
13 were with Youth Section?
14 A Brought the children in,
that's right.
15 683 Q Now when you say they
brought the children in,
16 that would mean that in
1989 these children were
17 being brought in even though
they resided with
18 Dale and Anita Klassen?
19 A That's right.
20 684 Q Did you tell Dale
and Anita Klassen that you
21 were interviewing children
that were under their
22 charge?
23 A Did I tell them?
24 685 Q Yes.
25 A No.
26 686 Q Well what steps did
you take to ensure that the
129
1 then foster parents knew
that you were
2 interviewing the children?
3 A I would suggest, them being
wards of the
4 province, that that would
have been Social
5 Services's duty to do that.
6 687 Q So you assumed something?
7 A Right.
8 688 Q Now, did you ever determine
whether or not they
9 had, in fact, contacted the
Klassens?
10 A No.
11 689 Q I would like to take
you to 1989. Did you ever
12 visit a school while the
children were still in
13 the charge of, in the custody
of, Dale and Anita
14 Klassen?
15 A I don't recall having
done that.
16 690 Q Did you ever meet
any principal or school
17 teacher at that time, in
the year 1989?
18 A No. The only school teacher
I recall is the one
19 in Warman when they had
moved.
20 691 Q So to the best of
your recollection you talked
21 to no school teacher?
22 A That's right.
23 692 Q Wasn't it your job
to determine whether some-
24 thing had happened to these
children?
25 A Certainly.
26 693 Q Right. So would part
of the protocol of your
130
1 investigation be to show
up at the school, find
2 out how things were at the
school?
3 A Not necessarily.
4 694 Q Were you just leaving
it to the one interview
5 you had with the children
in order to determine
6 whether they were abused?
7 A That was what I was doing,
yes. Social Services
8 was still involved with them.
9 695 Q At that point of time,
where you became
10 involved, you knew by that
time that disclosure
11 is a long and frustrating
process, isn't it?
12 A That's right.
13 696 Q So you knew that disclosure
would come not just
14 after one interview but
it would come after
15 many?
16 A Not necessarily.
17 697 Q Were your interviewing
techniques such in 1989
18 that you felt you could
get disclosure in one
19 interview?
20 A No.
21 698 Q Why was it that you
didn't follow up with the
22 children in 1989 to determine
whether or not
23 they were, in fact, being
sexually abused?
24 A Because they were wards,
they were being looked
25 after by case workers for
Social Services. It
26 was common practice, then,
if children didn't
131
1 disclose that Social Services
kept working with
2 them, if there were any indications
that came
3 out of that -- and Social
Services does school
4 visits -- if there was anything
else that came
5 out of that that required
police action, they
6 would be back in contact
with us.
7 699 Q All right. So, then,
one would only have to
8 presume that since they didn't
get back to you
9 that there weren't any disclosures?
10 A That they didn't get back
to me?
11 700 Q Yes.
12 A Well, until the spring,
that's right.
13 701 Q But in the spring
what was the first disclosure
14 made, then, and who made
it?
15 A That was Michael at the
Taco Time. Well, I
16 mean, obviously he disclosed
something before
17 that but I don't know exactly
what that
18 disclosure was.
19 702 Q So when you were now
putting this file together
20 for Matt Miazga, did you
tell Matt about this
21 1989 meeting with the four
children?
22 A It's right on the top
of the report that he got.
23 703 Q And did you also tell
him that there weren't any
24 disclosures until Taco Time?
25 A Well, again, that's in
the report.
26 704 Q So whatever is in
the report is what you gave
132
1 him?
2 A That's right.
3 705 Q At Taco Time there
wasn't any real disclosure,
4 was there, there was something
said that if
5 things are safe I've got
lots to say about Dale
6 and Anita Klassen; right?
7 A As I read it, "Once
I'm safe I've got lots to
8 tell about sexual abuse,"
is his words.
9 706 Q Let me just read your
words back to you. I
10 quote: "I only told
enough to get my sister
11 safe. I've got lots more
to tell you about
12 sexual abuse." That
would be more akin to what
13 Michael said back in 1990;
is that correct?
14 A That's right.
15 707 Q Now when he used those
words, "I only told
16 enough to get my sister
safe. I've got lots
17 more to tell you about sexual
abuse," wouldn't
18 you say that he left out
some key elements in
19 that statement? Sexual abuse
with who? When
20 did you learn that he was
really talking about
21 sexual abuse with, for instance,
his natural
22 parents, was that at a later
date?
23 A Yes, it was.
24 708 Q And then at a later
date is it, then, that you
25 learned that he was talking
about my clients,
26 the Klassens and the Kvellos?
133
1 A That's right.
2 709 Q And Richard Klassen?
3 A Right.
4 710 Q Now to just look at
the time frame here, we have
5 Taco Time in 1990 now, and
it's at Taco Time
6 that only Michael makes some
reference to sexual
7 abuse?
8 A Right.
9 711 Q What day was that,
that Michael met with you?
10 A I don't recall.
11 712 Q I'll let you just
review your file just to see
12 if there's some reference
to it there.
13 A June 14th, 1990.
14 713 Q So the first time,
according to your under-
15 standing, that Michael started
to talk was about
16 June 14th?
17 A No, he had talked previous
to that, that's why I
18 was contacted. But he hadn't
talked to me.
19 714 Q So he hadn't talked
to you, that's why the girls
20 were removed May the 29th?
21 A Why they were removed?
Obviously, he had
22 disclosed to someone else.
23 715 Q Okay. Now, in terms
of that disclosure and as
24 part of your police work,
what did you determine
25 Michael to have said to
Social Services prior to
26 June 14th at Taco Time?
134
1 A I was told that he had
disclosed that there was
2 sexual abuse going on in
that foster home.
3 716 Q Which one?
4 A In the Dale and Anita Klassen
foster home.
5 717 Q Well, that might tell
us something about sexual
6 abuse going on there, but
you would want to find
7 out with whom that sexual
abuse was going on?
8 A That's right.
9 718 Q So who did you ask,
then, on June 14th or
10 thereabouts as to what Michael
was saying
11 earlier?
12 A I spoke to Lyle and Marilyn
Thompson, also to
13 the social worker at that
time.
14 719 Q Okay, fine. So the
actual abuse, then, that's
15 being referred to would
come from notes made by
16 the Thompsons, would it?
17 A By the Thompsons, by the
social worker, whoever.
18 720 Q By the social worker.
Did you get a copy of the
19 notes from the Thompsons?
20 A There were no notes from
the Thompsons at that
21 time that I got. That was
later on in the
22 process when Marilyn Thompson
started bringing
23 these notes in.
24 721 Q So I'm talking now
about June 14th, this is a
25 key day for you because,
really, Michael is
26 starting to talk to you?
135
1 A That's right.
2 722 Q Before, in 1989, he
didn't disclose a thing to
3 you?
4 A That's right.
5 723 Q Neither did his sisters,
or Crystal. Now on
6 June 14th there's some disclosure
and I'm sure
7 at that point of time you
wanted to open up a
8 file?
9 A That's right.
10 724 Q And you did, you started
an occurrence report?
11 A That's right.
12 725 Q Under an occurrence
number?
13 A That's right.
14 726 Q Would that number
have been around June the
15 14th, 1990?
16 A I assume so.
17 727 Q Okay. And so in relation
to that file my
18 question is, did you find
out from Social
19 Services exactly what Michael
said happened in
20 the Anita and Dale Klassen
home?
21 A No, I can't say I found
out exactly. I found
22 out the generalities. I
would prefer to have it
23 that way so that when I
interviewed him I would
24 find out, hopefully, a pure
version from him.
25 728 Q All right, that's
fair. So you didn't have
26 anything of your own --
I mean, you wanted to
136
1 have everything of your own
and let you decide
2 whether these are true representations
of what
3 was going on?
4 A That's right.
5 729 Q That meant that you
would have wanted to
6 interview Michael because
he was the one now
7 talking and you would want
to do that pretty
8 early in the game. When did
you next interview
9 Michael Ross?
10 A I don't recall the exact
day. It wasn't early
11 in the game, though, they
were in therapy then
12 and it was left for a while
before we
13 interviewed.
14 730 Q Your evidence this
morning seemed to indicate
15 that the only interviews
you had with Michael
16 were all taped in October-November?
17 A That's right.
18 731 Q Would it be fair to
say that between June 14th
19 and October of the same
year that you didn't
20 interview Michael?
21 A That's right.
22 732 Q Someone had been with
Michael and with the
23 children in the meantime?
24 A Someone had been with
them, that's right.
25 733 Q In terms of therapy
and counselling?
26 A I'm assuming that, yes.
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