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Superintendant
Brian Dueck finally dropped his appeal July 18, 2004 | Final
judgment: Dec. 30, 2003 | injusticebusters'
daily reports
68
1 A No.
2 353 Q Now, did you ask any
of the plaintiffs to
3 present pictures?
4 A Pictures of?
5 354 Q Right. I guess that's
a good question, pictures
6 of what? Now you said in
your evidence today
7 that some of the children
mentioned pictures, so
8 taking it from the children,
then, that there
9 were pictures, did you ask
anyone of the
10 plaintiffs to produce family
pictures or
11 pictures of the children?
12 A No.
13 355 Q Did you ask Dennis
Kvello?
14 A No, I didn't ask any of
them.
15 356 Q All right. As it relates
to these pictures, did
16 any of the Klassens or Kvellos
provide you with
17 pictures and simply say,
well, look, you never
18 asked for these but here's
a nice family scene
19 of the Ross children with
us?
20 A No.
21 357 Q Prior to your going
to Matt Miazga with
22 information did you see
any other prosecutor?
23 A I believe when I first
took the file to the
24 prosecutor's office I gave
it to Terry Hinz.
25 358 Q Who is Terry Hinz?
26 A A prosecutor at the office
here.
69
1 359 Q And at what period
of time would you have gone
2 to Terry Hinz?
3 A It would have been at the
end of April. When I
4 first took the file in it
was given to Terry
5 Hinz.
6 360 Q So that would have
been April of 1990?
7 A One.
8 361 Q All right. So you didn't
deal with a prosecutor
9 at all in 1990; is that correct?
10 A No, I didn't.
11 362 Q Not once did you confer
with any prosecutor?
12 A No.
13 363 Q Who was the first
prosecutor you ever conferred
14 with regarding the case
against the Kvellos and
15 Klassens, my clients?
16 A As I say, I took the file
into the prosecutor's
17 office, this copy right
here, and gave it to
18 Terry Hinz. Left it there
for it to be reviewed
19 either by him or by someone
else. And the next
20 contact I had was with Matt
Miazga.
21 364 Q Now can you tell me,
prior to your putting
22 together Exhibit P-1, did
you receive the advice
23 of anyone in the Department
of Justice,
24 including the prosecutors?
25 A No.
26 365 Q Prior to you presenting
Exhibit P-1 to a
70
1 prosecutor, did you seek
any advice from a
2 lawyer?
3 A No.
4 366 Q You presented, then,
Exhibit P-1 to Terry Hinz,
5 a local Saskatoon prosecutor?
6 A As I recall, yes, I did.
7 367 Q Now, did you have a
meeting with him precisely
8 to deal with what you had
to give?
9 A My recollection of that
is that I went to the
10 prosecutor's office, brought
the file in, said
11 here's a file I've been
working on. I believe
12 we had a short conversation
regarding the file,
13 a short summary. I know
he didn't read it while
14 I was there. It's a fairly
thick file, as you
15 can see. And I left it with
him, which was very
16 normal practice at that
time, to leave the file
17 there, no different than
today.
18 368 Q That was the protocol
then, that if you were
19 interested in getting an
opinion as to whether
20 charges should be laid,
part of the protocol is
21 to meet with the prosecutor?
22 A Right.
23 369 Q Now prior to your
meeting with Terry Hinz in --
24 A I should qualify that,
though. It's not always
25 necessary to meet with the
prosecutor. Often it
26 was just the file was brought
there, the
71
1 prosecutor you happen to
talk to might not be
2 the one who reviewed the
file or took it. No
3 different than today. Files
are sent over today
4 regularly and when the investigator
sends them
5 over they really have no
idea of who is going to
6 get them.
7 370 Q Prior to your meeting
with Terry Hinz in April
8 of 1991 did you meet with
any other police
9 officer to review your file?
10 A No. I had a couple of
different police officers
11 help me with different parts
of the file, like
12 Sergeant Jim Walker. I recall
Jim Walker
13 specifically, and certainly,
he and I discussed
14 the file.
15 371 Q Prior to your coming
here today and within the
16 last week, did you talk
to Sergeant Jim Walker?
17 A No.
18 372 Q You never received
a call from him, discussed
19 anything with him?
20 A Did I receive a call?
Yeah, actually, I did, he
21 phoned and asked and said
that you wanted to
22 meet with him, and I told
him that was fine. He
23 was wondering what was happening,
I said, well,
24 I'm going to examination
for discovery and you
25 do what you have to do.
Jim is retired, as
26 you're aware.
72
1 373 Q Yes.
2 A I believe it was within
the last week. I
3 haven't really met or talked
to Jim for probably
4 three months or four months.
5 374 Q So he phoned you because
he had received a call
6 from me?
7 A That's right.
8 375 Q That was your understanding?
9 A That's right.
10 376 Q Prior to your coming
here today, then, you
11 didn't get a chance to talk
about any of his
12 particular work on the file?
13 A No.
14 377 Q Now, prior to your
meeting with Terry Hinz, I
15 had asked you if you had
been working with other
16 police officers. You had
been working with
17 Sergeant Jim Walker, and
then there was another
18 person that you had mentioned?
19 A No, I hadn't mentioned
one, I was trying to
20 think. There were different
policemen who did
21 different things for me
in the file. The
22 searches out at Laird, the
search at Donald
23 Ross's place were handled
by -- I was at Laird,
24 some RCMP members helped
me there and some of
25 our members. The search
at Donald Ross's was
26 done by some of our other
members from our Youth
73
1 Section. I don't recall specifically
right now
2 who exactly did them.
3 378 Q Now I'm just going
to confine your answers to
4 the Kvello and Klassen defendants,
did you have
5 anyone assisting you from
the police department
6 with those particular accused?
7 A Occasionally, the day of
the arrest, certainly,
8 I had some people with me.
There was no one
9 assigned to the file permanently.
Certainly I'd
10 asked for that but it didn't
happen, no one was
11 assigned permanently to
the file. I know that
12 we looked at a lot of other
people in the file,
13 trying to find other foster
children, what have
14 you, we had great difficulty
with that. And I
15 remember there were members
who assisted with
16 some of that, but I don't
recall who they were.
17 379 Q You had worked with
Jim Walker, at least, he
18 helped with one or two interviews
of the
19 children; is that correct?
20 A He was out at Red Deer
with me.
21 380 Q He was at Red Deer
with you?
22 A That's right.
23 381 Q For what purpose?
24 A When we interviewed Richard
Klassen and Dale and
25 Anita.
26 382 Q Did he interview any
child?
74
1 A Did he?
2 383 Q Yes.
3 A No.
4 384 Q What about Mikey, Pam's
little boy?
5 A Not that I'm aware of.
6 385 Q So you have no idea
whether he interviewed that
7 child or not?
8 A I don't recall that, whether
he did or not.
9 386 Q Did you interview Mikey?
10 A No, I didn't. I was aware
that Social Services
11 had interviewed him but
I'm not aware of any
12 police officer interviewing
him.
13 387 Q Have you ever seen
any reports from Jim Walker?
14 A From Jim Walker?
15 388 Q Regarding the Klassens
and Kvellos?
16 A No.
17 389 Q Did you attach any
documents from other police
18 officers to Exhibit P-1?
19 A No.
20 390 Q I guess P-1 reads
for itself, speaks for itself.
21 A This is the police occurrence
report. Certainly
22 there are other documents,
as I said before, Dr.
23 Yelland's reports, I obtained
some medical
24 reports from University
Hospital, the Alvin
25 Buckwold Centre, for Matt
Miazga later, but even
26 those reports, I didn't
review them, I obtained
75
1 them for him, took them to
the prosecutor's
2 office.
3 391 Q You had brought your
file, Exhibit P-1, in to
4 Terry Hinz and at that particular
time did Terry
5 Hinz say he would look at
the file?
6 A I believe he did, I don't
recall specifically.
7 I remember having a short
conversation, a brief
8 review of the file, or an
overview. Left it
9 there, hadn't heard back
for over a month,
10 phoned down to find out
what was happening and I
11 don't recall who I talked
to that day. And the
12 next contact I had was with
Matt Miazga saying
13 he had the file and to come
in and talk to him.
14 392 Q All right. So did
you have a little eyeball-to-
15 eyeball talk with Terry
Hinz regarding this
16 file?
17 A No, I did not.
18 393 Q Did he ever express
to you an opinion regarding
19 this file?
20 A No.
21 394 Q Did he ever say to
you, sir, you shouldn't lay
22 charges with this kind of
evidence?
23 A No.
24 395 Q Did he tell you you're
on the wrong track?
25 A No.
26 396 Q Did Terry Hinz ever
have a conversation with you
76
1 prior to your meeting Matt
Miazga?
2 A The brief conversation
we had when I dropped the
3 file off, as I indicated,
where I gave him a
4 brief overview of the file.
He didn't read it
5 at that time, I left the
file there and waited
6 for a response.
7 397 Q Now, since the response
wasn't coming you waited
8 till May of 1991?
9 A Sometime in May, early
June, and phoned back to
10 see what was happening.
11 398 Q All right. Was it
at that time that someone
12 said you better speak with
a Mr. Matt Miazga
13 regarding this file?
14 A No, actually, they didn't.
As I recall I left a
15 message to find out what
was happening with the
16 file, and Matt Miazga called
me.
17 399 Q Now at what point
of time were charges actually
18 instituted?
19 A After Matt and Sonja reviewed
the file, I
20 believe there were a couple
of other things they
21 wanted, as I indicated,
the records from the
22 Alvin Buckwold Centre where
the children had
23 been for therapy at an earlier
time. I believe
24 the medical report from
Dr. Yelland, and there
25 was also some follow-up
to do on a few of the
26 other complainants in this
file, to see whether
77
1 they would come forward.
2 400 Q Have you ever seen
a criminal record relating to
3 a Marie Klassen?
4 A No. You asked that earlier.
5 401 Q No, but have you ever
seen a criminal record
6 relating to a Marie Klassen?
7 A No.
8 402 Q Not necessarily the
plaintiff in this case and
9 not necessarily the accused,
Marie Klassen.
10 Have you ever seen in your
file a criminal
11 record relating to a Marie
Klassen?
12 A Not that I recall, no.
13 403 Q Did you ever see a
criminal record in your file
14 relating to a Peter Klassen?
15 A Yes, I checked on Peter
Klassen's criminal
16 record.
17 404 Q Did you first determine,
before you even started
18 this investigation, that
Peter Klassen may have
19 been convicted of sexual
abuse of children at
20 one time?
21 A Yes, I was aware of that.
22 405 Q Now, I don't want
to be unfair here. I asked
23 you whether, before you
started this
24 investigation --
25 A Before I started it, no,
of course I wouldn't
26 have checked on Peter Klassen
before I started
78
1 it. It would have been after
the disclosures
2 were made and it was alleged
that he was
3 involved. I mean that was
part of the
4 investigation.
5 406 Q According to your evidence
you first met Michael
6 with the Thompsons in the
late fall of 1989 at
7 Taco Time?
8 A Right.
9 407 Q Prior to that you wouldn't
have had any need to,
10 then, determine whether
Peter Klassen had a
11 record?
12 A I had no idea who was
involved at that time.
13 408 Q Had you even heard
the name Peter Klassen before
14 you met Michael?
15 A Not that I recall, no.
16 409 Q You were already in
the Youth Division, but you
17 didn't know Peter Klassen?
18 A No. Oh, gosh, we had 100
files going through
19 there, I had no idea. I
had never investigated
20 a file involving him.
21 410 Q Did you know any of
the Klassens before you
22 talked to Michael in the
fall of 1989?
23 A No. As I indicated earlier.
24 411 Q Before you went to
see Terry Hinz did you find
25 out what particular records
Social Services had
26 on each one of the foster
parents? Let me give
79
1 you an example, on Dennis
Kvello, whether he was
2 a fit foster parent, did
you go and determine
3 whether or not Dennis Kvello
had any blemishes
4 on his record as a foster
parent?
5 A No. I would believe that
Social Services would
6 have brought a concern forward,
or he wouldn't
7 have been a foster parent
had there been a
8 blemish, obviously.
9 412 Q Right. And you knew
him to be a foster parent?
10 A Certainly, that was the
information or
11 indication we were given,
yes.
12 413 Q Did you also know
that Diane Kvello, his wife,
13 was a foster parent?
14 A Right.
15 414 Q And so according to
your understanding, working
16 with the Youth Section,
if there was a blemish
17 it would be brought forward
by the Department of
18 Social Services?
19 A Absolutely.
20 415 Q So you presumed that
there wasn't any blemishes
21 against them because they
had, in fact, fostered
22 children?
23 A That's right.
24 416 Q All right. So did
you determine whether or not
25 Dennis Kvello and Diane
Kvello had criminal
26 records?
80
1 A Probably somewhere in the
investigation I
2 certainly checked that. I
don't recall
3 specifically doing that,
but I'm sure I would
4 have checked for that.
5 417 Q So you know that they
had, I'm presuming, no
6 blemish on their record with
the Department of
7 Social Services; no criminal
record?
8 A Right.
9 418 Q Now Michael makes allegations
against Diane and
10 Dennis Kvello?
11 A Right.
12 419 Q So what did you do
to follow up with those
13 allegations made by Michael
as it relates to
14 those two adults?
15 A What did I do to follow
up?
16 420 Q Yeah.
17 A You are aware that we
had them in for an
18 interview.
19 421 Q Yes.
20 A You accompanied them.
21 422 Q Yes. Was I there for
the whole interview?
22 A I don't recall if you
were, Mr. Borden, but I
23 remember that you did bring
them in, and I
24 interviewed them briefly.
25 423 Q Did you interview
them briefly?
26 A Yes.
81
1 424 Q All right, if I can
just stop you there. So now
2 you have two people, Dennis
and Diane Kvello,
3 and there's no blemishes
against them, no
4 criminal record, as far as
you can recollect,
5 and you interviewed them.
Now was there
6 something in that interview
that told you they
7 did it, did they make a confession?
8 A No.
9 425 Q Did they admit to it?
10 A No.
11 426 Q And up to the point
of the interview did you
12 have any physical evidence
that would prove
13 that, in fact, they had
sexual relations with
14 either one of these children?
15 A Physical evidence that
they, specifically?
16 427 Q Yes.
17 A There was physical evidence
that the children
18 had been sexually abused.
19 428 Q Yes. Was there any
evidence that Dennis Kvello
20 had sexual abuse [sic] with
the children, other
21 than the utterances of the
children?
22 A Other than the utterances
of the children, no.
23 429 Q All right. Now, do
you recall in relation to
24 Dennis Kvello whether there
was anything
25 specifically said about
him, about, let's say,
26 Dennis's own physical features?
Did Michael say
82
1 that Dennis was a big man?
2 A I don't recall. Again,
it would be in those
3 transcripts of the tapes.
4 430 Q And again, if you had
asked the question it
5 would be in the transcripts
of the tapes?
6 A Right.
7 431 Q Do you remember at
any time, in even one of the
8 short meetings at Taco Time
or up in the coffee
9 shop at the police station,
that Michael would
10 have described Dennis Kvello?
11 A Michael was never in the
coffee shop at the
12 police station, so I'm not
sure what you're
13 referring to there.
14 432 Q Well, I may be mistaken,
I thought that there
15 was a little place somewhere
in the police
16 station where you could
go and get a drink or --
17 A No, we would take them
across to Mulberry's, if
18 that's what you're referring
to. No, I don't
19 recall him ever -- I don't
recall. As I say,
20 once those interviews were
done I was very
21 careful not to be questioning
them because I
22 wanted whatever evidence
there was to be on
23 those tapes.
24 433 Q Right. And then you
would just present it to
25 the prosecutors and I think
the bottom line here
26 is they would decide whether
charges would be
83
1 laid, not you?
2 A That's right.
3 434 Q Because you're just
the investigating officer?
4 A I guess so, yeah.
5 435 Q Okay. So now if we
could just go back, then, to
6 Dennis Kvello. When Michael
described a Dennis
7 Kvello for the first time,
did you have any idea
8 who this person was?
9 A No.
10 436 Q Did you go out and
get a picture of him or did
11 you put him in a line-up?
12 A No, I don't think so.
13 437 Q Did you go and meet
him, other than this brief
14 meeting that you said you
had through me, was
15 there any time that you
actually met with him?
16 A No.
17 438 Q Did you have any conversations
by telephone with
18 Mr. Dennis Kvello?
19 A I might have, to call
him in for the interview,
20 but I don't recall that.
21 439 Q And prior to you walking
in with the information
22 to Mr. Terry Hinz had you
interviewed Mr.
23 Kvello?
24 A Yes.
25 440 Q And prior to your
going into Matt's office to
26 talk to him about this file,
of course, you had
84
1 already interviewed Dennis
Kvello?
2 A Right.
3 441 Q Was there a point of
time when Matt Miazga said,
4 well, as it relates to Dennis
Kvello maybe you
5 should just go and get something
else?
6 A Get something else?
7 442 Q Anything. Anything.
8 A What are we talking about
here?
9 443 Q Well, right, what are
we talking about? Did
10 Matt Miazga ask you as the
investigating officer
11 to go and get something
else. All you had was
12 Exhibit P-1 and some video
tapes so far?
13 A Right.
14 444 Q Did Matt Miazga say
to you, sir, I need A, B or
15 C, whatever that might be?
16 A I don't recall that, no.
17 445 Q Did he make any special
requests of you as it
18 relates to Dennis Kvello,
to get any other
19 evidence?
20 A I don't recall. I know
that we went and
21 interviewed the neighbours
of the Kvellos,
22 across the road. We interviewed
some children
23 that had been in there,
not in a foster
24 situation but had been in
there in a child care
25 situation. I took a statement,
as you're aware,
26 from a neighbour across
the street, from John
85
1 Grunow (phonetic) who talked
about the pictures
2 of Anita. Other than that,
I don't recall
3 anything that I was sent
out to get on Dennis
4 Kvello specifically.
5 446 Q So anything that you
had in relation to Dennis
6 Kvello when you first knew
Matt was involved
7 would have been Exhibit P-1
and the video tapes?
8 A Exactly.
9 447 Q And if there was an
interview with a neighbour
10 that may or may not have
been contained in
11 Exhibit P-1?
12 A It may not have been.
13 448 Q And if there was an
interview with one of the
14 employees or employers of
any of these defend-
15 ants, that may not have
been in Exhibit P-1?
16 A Right.
17 449 Q John Grunow, did he
say anything, as you can
18 recollect, about Dennis
Kvello?
19 A Not that I recollect,
no.
20 450 Q Did he say anything
about Diane Kvello?
21 A He talked about the pictures
that Sheldon had
22 shown him in the statement
that he gave.
23 451 Q Sure, but I asked
you whether or not he said
24 anything about Diane Kvello?
25 A What are we referring
to, the fact that these
26 pictures were there, the
fact that Sheldon
86
1 indicated he got them from
his mother, or are we
2 talking about sexual activity?
3 452 Q Anything.
4 A Well, again, there's a
written statement in the
5 disclosure that says exactly
what John Grunow
6 told me.
7 453 Q Sure.
8 A And he talked about nude
pictures of Anita
9 Klassen that Sheldon Kvello
had shown him, and I
10 believe, I'm not totally
certain, I don't recall
11 the whole statement right
now, that Sheldon had
12 indicated that he'd gotten
it from his mother,
13 or something, and that later
there had been a
14 meeting with Grunow's mother
and Dennis and
15 Diane and the boys regarding
this, that they'd
16 been discovered or something.
I mean it's all
17 in that written statement.
18 454 Q It's all in the written
statement from John
19 Grunow?
20 A Right. Regarding any sexual
abuse, sexual
21 activity, no.
22 455 Q So all you had, then,
was pictures of Anita?
23 A That was John Grunow's
statement, yes.
24 456 Q No pictures of Diane?
25 A No.
26 457 Q No pictures of Dennis?
87
1 A No.
2 458 Q How old was Sheldon
Kvello at that period of
3 time?
4 A I don't recall.
5 459 Q Was he under the age
of 18?
6 A If I can look in the report
I can tell you.
7 460 Q Sure.
8 A Born in 1973, so 19 --
or 17, I should say.
9 461 Q So still a young person,
still under the age of
10 18. Did you have any concerns
about Sheldon
11 being involved in some kind
of immoral behaviour
12 involving his parents and
his aunt?
13 A I'm not sure what -- which
aunt, what are you --
14 462 Q How about Anita, then,
those pictures of her,
15 were you concerned about
that?
16 A Well, no. I'm just not
following it. No, I had
17 no concerns there. I had
disclosures about
18 activity that he had had
with the children,
19 sexual activity with the
children, that was a
20 concern.
21 463 Q "He" meaning?
22 A Sheldon.
23 464 Q Yes.
24 A There was disclosure there
about sexual activity
25 with the children.
26 465 Q Right.
88
1 A But other than that, I'm
not sure.
2 466 Q You didn't think he
was the victim of something
3 involving his parents, his
own parents, Diane
4 and Dennis?
5 A I think that's always a
possibility with anyone,
6 you know, that's accused
of offending, that they
7 could be a victim.
8 467 Q Yeah, right. But you
never saw any evidence of
9 it, did you?
10 A No.
11 468 Q Did you ever ask for,
for instance, medical
12 records relating to Sheldon
and Sherry Kvello?
13 A I don't believe so.
14 469 Q These were young people
and, you know, there's
15 always the possibility,
you said, that they may
16 have been abused by their
parents if there's any
17 allegation of sexual abuse
out there.
18 A Right.
19 470 Q Did you think it would
be necessary, therefore,
20 to see if Sherry Kvello
may have been abused at
21 one time?
22 A I believe that was done
by Social Services, that
23 I recall.
24 471 Q And what did you determine?
25 A I didn't determine anything.
As I said, I
26 believe Social Services
did something in regards
89
1 to that.
2 472 Q Did you see anything
before you went in to see
3 Matt Miazga to determine
what they had found out
4 about Sherry?
5 A I don't recall whether
it was before I saw Matt
6 or not.
7 473 Q Because, you know,
when you're trying to
8 determine whether charges
would be laid,
9 wouldn't the prosecutor like
to know what
10 medical reports there are
on any party?
11 A Well, when you say "any
party," I mean what are
12 we talking here? Are you
talking those that are
13 alleged victims?
14 474 Q How about some of
the accused?
15 A I guess that would be
up to the prosecutor to
16 ask for that.
17 475 Q Okay, not you as the
investigating officer?
18 A No.
19 476 Q Did Matt Miazga ever
ask you to determine the
20 medical status or condition
of a Sherry Kvello?
21 A Not that I recall.
22 477 Q Did he ever ask you
to determine the medical
23 status of any of the other
children that may
24 have been charged in this
particular matter?
25 A That were charged?
26 478 Q Yes.
90
1 A Not that I recall.
2 479 Q He never invited you
to go out and ask for
3 medical reports?
4 A No.
5 480 Q There were two seminars
that you went to, and
6 one was put on by the Department
of Social
7 Services and then the second
one was probably an
8 independent seminar put on
by somebody?
9 A Right.
10 481 Q Who was that somebody?
11 A I don't recall. As I said
earlier, it was a
12 group in town, Colin Clay
was involved in it, if
13 you remember him, Liz Newton,
there were others,
14 I don't recall who they
were.
15 482 Q So Liz Newton may
have been affiliated with
16 Colin Clay at this time?
17 A I believe she probably
was.
18 483 Q And they had a little
organization, do you know
19 the name of that organization?
20 A I don't, as I said three
times now, I don't
21 remember it.
22 484 Q But you think that
they would have put on a
23 seminar. And why did you
think it would be
24 necessary that you would
go to a seminar put on
25 by a Colin Clay or a Liz
Newton?
26 A I believe that was the
seminar that Dr. Jon
91
1 Conte came to, it related
to ritualistic abuse
2 of children. I was interested
in that, I wanted
3 to see what that was about.
4 485 Q Well, in your evidence
already, and I don't mean
5 to cross-examine you on this,
but just to make
6 it clear, you said that,
you know, ritual abuse
7 of children, sexual abuse
of children are two
8 different things. You can
have sexual abuse
9 without ritualistic behaviour?
10 A Right.
11 486 Q Why was it so necessary
that you would want to
12 attend at some of these
seminars involving
13 ritual sexual behaviour?
14 A It was an education.
15 487 Q Had you worked on
other cases involving this
16 before?
17 A I don't recall whether
I'd ever had any
18 allegations that involved
that, no.
19 488 Q Well working for the
Youth Section to that
20 point, maybe you had worked
there for about a
21 year. Had you known of any
other charges of
22 ritual sexual abuse in Saskatoon?
23 A There had been some files
that others had worked
24 on that indicate some of
that.
25 489 Q Did those culminate
in charges being laid
26 ultimately?
92
1 A I don't believe so.
2 490 Q For instance, in the
City of Saskatoon can you
3 think of any accused that
was charged with
4 ritual sexual --
5 A There is no such charge.
6 491 Q Right.
7 A It's sexual abuse.
8 492 Q Sexual abuse, then,
involving ritual or satanic
9 behaviour?
10 A I'm not aware of any.
I don't know.
11 493 Q So you can't think
of one. And when you were
12 investigating the Klassen
and Kvello matter, did
13 you think that it had some
of the attributes of
14 ritual or satanic behaviour,
based on these two
15 seminars you went to?
16 A No.
17 494 Q All right. And as
it relates to the Rosses, and
18 we're talking about the
natural parents, did you
19 think there was an element
there of sexual or
20 satanic abuse?
21 A Well, again, satanic abuse.
There was sexual
22 abuse there, certainly.
Certainly, these
23 children had been subjected
to something, in my
24 opinion, that would indicate
some type of
25 rituals or that sort of
thing, I mean they
26 disclosed that. But as far
as the actual
93
1 charges, the charges are
sexual abuse.
2 495 Q Yes, there's no doubt
about that. There's no
3 doubt about it. So what you're
saying is that
4 you came away from those
two seminars with some
5 information that was helpful
to your job and
6 your position as a member
of the Youth Section?
7 A I believe so. That's why
I went.
8 496 Q Yes. When you were
investigating them further,
9 Michelle and Kathy and Michael,
was there a time
10 when you thought, well,
we know there's sexual
11 abuse here, but as it relates
to Diane and
12 Dennis Kvello there's an
element of maybe the
13 satanic or ritual behaviour?
14 A I don't recall ever having
thought that.
15 497 Q And as it relates
to Sheldon and Sherry, was
16 there an element, ever,
in all of your
17 investigations, of the ritual
or satanic element
18 that may be associated with
sexual abuse of
19 children?
20 A I don't recall that either.
21 498 Q There were reports
that you wanted to get from
22 Alvin Buckwold and the medical
reports from Dr.
23 Yelland, those are the things
Matt had you
24 actually go out and do;
is that right?
25 A Right.
26 499 Q Did Matt also have
you go out and get other
94
1 reports regarding Michael
or Michelle or Kathy,
2 medical reports?
3 A Those are the medical reports.
We were aware
4 that through Social Services
they had been at
5 Alvin Buckwold for treatment
years earlier and I
6 believe back even when they
were in their birth
7 parents' home.
8 500 Q Did you secure those
reports?
9 A Yes, we did.
10 501 Q Did you get involved
in any disclosure to
11 defence counsel as it led
up to the preliminary
12 hearing, were you involved
in seeing that
13 defence counsel received
any disclosure?
14 A It's all done through
the prosecutor's office.
15 502 Q Not through you at
all, is it?
16 A No. I mean the prosecutor
would ask for
17 anything that we had and
we're aware that we
18 have to disclose.
19 503 Q So I just want to
sum up here, then, basically,
20 what you would have before
charges were laid.
21 You had Exhibit P-1, you
had the video tapes?
22 A Right.
23 504 Q Then you also had
medical reports from Dr.
24 Yelland, medical reports
from Alvin Buckwold;
25 correct?
26 A I don't believe we had
the medical reports from
95
1 Alvin Buckwold before the
charges were laid. I
2 know we had the ones from
Yelland but I don't
3 believe we had the ones from
Alvin Buckwold
4 before. The Alvin Buckwold
one, as you
5 understand, too, is not physical
medical
6 reports, those are psychological
testing that
7 the children went through.
8 505 Q Yes. So prior to your
laying charges against
9 any of my clients did you,
in fact, go to Alvin
10 Buckwold and try to secure
some of these
11 reports?
12 A I don't think so. I think
it was after the
13 charges were laid.
14 506 Q When did you first
realize that there may be a
15 psychiatric report in relation
to Michael on
16 file somewhere, some place?
17 A I don't recall the date.
18 507 Q But it was after the
charges were laid that you
19 recognize that there was
a psychiatric report?
20 A That's when I went to
secure them, yes.
21 508 Q So Matt Miazga hadn't
told you till after the
22 charges were laid that he
knew about the
23 psychiatric reports?
24 A I don't recall that at
all.
25 509 Q Did you ever see a
report that said Michael was
26 a liar in a psychiatric
way, he had a psychotic
96
1 condition?
2 A No.
3 510 Q You never saw that?
4 A No.
5 511 Q Did you ever have any
idea of that before
6 charges were laid that some
other people who
7 were professionals recognized
that Michael was
8 the kind of person that could
lie, did lie?
9 A No, I wasn't aware of that.
10 512 Q Did you ever see the
phrase "psychotic liar"?
11 A No.
12 513 Q Did you ever go out
to a school, before the
13 charges were laid, and talk
to any of the
14 principals or school teachers
at Michael's
15 school?
16 A Yeah, we did, in Warman.
17 514 Q That was before the
charges were laid?
18 A That's right.
19 515 Q Now did a particular
principal tell you at that
20 time look, you can't believe
Michael?
21 A No, I don't recall that
at all.
22 516 Q Now, did you make
any notes of that conversation
23 with that particular principal?
24 A I don't believe so.
25 517 Q And did you remember
or bring with you today the
26 name of that principal?
97
1 A John Reddekopp.
2 518 Q All right. So John
Reddekopp is the one, and he
3 said to you nothing about
whether or not Michael
4 was a liar?
5 A I don't recall that. I
mean, certainly, the
6 Thompsons indicated at times
that Michael lied
7 about things.
8 519 Q Okay. So the Thompsons
did. Now let's talk
9 about John Reddekopp.
10 A Well, as I said, I don't
recall him saying
11 anything about Michael lying.
12 520 Q But before charges
were laid you talked to John
13 Reddekopp?
14 A Right.
15 521 Q Now what school teachers
did you talk to before
16 charges were laid? Before
charges were laid
17 what school teacher did
you talk to?
18 A I think the only person
I talked to was the
19 principal, John Reddekopp.
20 522 Q And before charges
were laid did you know that
21 Michael Ross had abused
other children?
22 A That was the allegation,
yes.
23 523 Q Okay. So there were
allegations of abuse by
24 Michael of other children,
prior to your going
25 in to see Terry Hinz. Did
you let Terry Hinz
26 know that you had already
received allegations
98
1 of abuse of Michael Ross
on other children?
2 A Well I think a lot of that
was in the tapes, but
3 I don't think I verbally
said that to Terry.
4 524 Q When you talked to
John Reddekopp, the principal
5 of the school, did John tell
you that, in fact,
6 Michael had abused in some
way other children in
7 the school?
8 A I believe that's why I
was there.
9 525 Q And did you mark that
down and did you give that
10 to Mr. Miazga prior to your
showing up at his
11 office?
12 A I'm not sure. I know that
the allegations were
13 in the tapes of Michael
having -- Marilyn
14 Thompson's notes, for instance,
indicated some
15 of those things, that Michael
had disclosed that
16 to her; those were all given
to the prosecutor.
17 526 Q But surely, in terms
of the Thompson notes,
18 Superintendent Dueck, it
didn't talk about all
19 the children that might
have been abused at the
20 school, did it?
21 A I have no idea.
22 527 Q And did you not tell
Matt Miazga that you had a
23 talk with John Reddekopp
about the names of
24 other people that were abused
by Michael?
25 A I don't recall. Gosh,
we're talking 12 years
26 ago.
99
1 528 Q Sure, that's fine.
But you do have P-1, which
2 you've had a chance to review,
is there anything
3 in there, and I guess we'll
just have to look,
4 about your talk with John
Reddekopp?
5 A I don't recall.
6 529 Q Did John Reddekopp
tell you that Michael was
7 abusing even one child in
that school?
8 A I believe he told me that
there was an
9 allegation of that, yes.
10 530 Q Now do you recall
how many children Michael may
11 have abused in that school?
12 A No.
13 531 Q And did you actually
see to it that those
14 incidents were investigated
by yourself or other
15 police officers?
16 A I believe that was an
RCMP jurisdiction and
17 Social Services was involved
with that, along
18 with the Thompsons.
19 532 Q And who was the RCMP
officer that you spoke with
20 regarding these allegations?
21 A I'm not sure I spoke to
anyone.
22 533 Q How would it be that
any of these allegations
23 would be investigated if
you didn't speak to an
24 RCMP officer?
25 A Well, because Social Services
would have started
26 an investigation and would
have gone to them.
100
1 534 Q Is it correct, then,
that you would have gone
2 back to Social Services and
told them what you
3 had learned from Dr. -- I
say Dr. Reddekopp, I
4 should say John Reddekopp?
5 A I believe Social Services
actually indicated
6 that to me, that that's where
the information
7 came from, that they were
aware of it.
8 535 Q Did you follow up with
that to determine whether
9 there was any truth to these
allegations?
10 A As I said, that was an
RCMP jurisdiction there
11 and Social Services, they
had case workers
12 assigned to these children
out there and that
13 was their thing to do.
14 536 Q And that's fine. But
now you're walking into
15 Matt Miazga's office and
you know this
16 prosecutor has to know everything
that you know
17 about the case. I gather
from you that you
18 didn't even make an inquiry
as to whether or not
19 these allegations of Michael
abusing other
20 children were true, before
you walked into Mr.
21 Miazga's office?
22 A I had no reason to doubt
that they weren't true.
23 Michael was very sexually
active.
24 537 Q All right. So at least
you believed them to be
25 true?
26 A Yes.>
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