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Superintendant
Brian Dueck finally dropped his appeal July 18, 2004 | Final
judgment: Dec. 30, 2003 | injusticebusters'
daily reports | Dueck walks with
no criminal charges, although it is clear he obstructed justice
1
Q. B. No. 271 OF 1994
IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH
FOR SASKATCHEWAN
JUDICIAL CENTRE OF SASKATOON
BETWEEN:
DENNIS KVELLO, DIANE KVELLO, SHELDON KVELLO,
SHERRY KVELLO (by her litigation guardian Diane
Kvello), KARI KLASSEN, RICHARD KLASSEN, PAMELA
KLASSEN, MARIE KLASSEN, JOHN KLASSEN, MYRNA
KLASSEN, PETER DALE KLASSEN, ANITA JANINE KLASSEN,
PLAINTIFFS,
- and -
MATTHEW MIAZGA, SONIA HANSON,
RICHARD QUINNEY,
BRIAN DUECK, OWEN MAGUIRE, CAROL BUNKO-RUYS,
SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS (3),
DEFENDANTS.
RECORD OF EVIDENCE
EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY
of
BRIAN GEORGE DUECK
(a defendant)
by MR. BORDEN
------------------------------------------------------------
HELD at Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, on THURSDAY, the ELEVENTH
and THURSDAY the TWELFTH of JULY, A.D. 2002.
------------------------------------------------------------
MR. R. L. BORDEN Borden Holgate Law Office
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
SOLICITOR FOR ALL THE PLAINTIFFS
EXCEPTING RICHARD KLASSEN
MR. D. A. GERRAND Gerrand Rath
Johnson
Regina, Saskatchewan
SOLICITORS FOR THE DEFENDANTS BRIAN DUECK
OWEN MAGUIRE, SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS
------------------------------------------------------------
C. V. REPORTING SERVICES LTD.
500 - 224 4th Avenue South
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
S7K 5M5
Phone: (306) 242-3455
email: cvreporting@sk.sympatico.ca
2
Q.B. No. 271 of A.D. 1994
-------------------------------------------------------
I N D E X
LIST OF EXHIBITS
PAGE:
EXHIBIT P-1: FILE PROVIDED TO PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE IN
THE SPRING OF 1991, COMPRISING DEFENDANTS'
DOCUMENTS 531(a) TO 610 (NOT INCLUDING ATTACHED
BLUE SHEETS) ..................................... 61
EXHIBIT P-2: UNAMENDED, ORIGINAL
VERSION OF INFORMATION
NUMBER 17746444 (DEFENDANT'S DOCUMENT 142) .... 193
EXHIBIT P-3: AMENDED VERSION
OF INFORMATION NUMBER
17746444 (DEFENDANT'S DOCUMENT 316) ....... 193
EXHIBIT P-4: INFORMATION CHARGING
SHELDON & SHERRY
KVELLO ...................... 199
EXHIBIT P-5: MEDICAL RECORDS
PREPARED BY DR. YELLAND,
ADDRESSED TO LIZ NEWTON ............. 217
EXHIBIT P-6: BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
KNOWN AS THE THOMPSON
NOTES ...................... 280
------------------------------------------------------------
LIST OF UNDERTAKINGS:
THE FOLLOWING IS NOT NECESSARILY A COMPLETE OR CORRECTLY
PHRASED LIST OF THE UNDERTAKINGS AND IS PROVIDED FOR THE
CONVENIENCE OF COUNSEL.
------------------------------------------------------------
PAGE:
UNDERTAKING #1: ATTEMPT TO ASCERTAIN IF SUPERINTENDENT
DUECK MADE NOTES OF CONVERSATION WITH MICHAEL ROSS
AT TACO TIME IN THE FALL OF 1989, IF SO PRODUCE A
COPY OF SAME .................... 15
UNDERTAKING #2: REVIEW EXHIBIT
P-1 & ADVISE IF ANY
EVIDENCE GIVEN BY SUPERINTENDENT DUECK IS
INCONSISTENT WITH IT ............... 108
UNDERTAKING #3: ADVISE IF SUPERINTENDENT
DUECK
RECOLLECTS THAT HE SAW DEFENDANTS' DOCUMENTS
521, 522, 523, 524 PRIOR TO THE LAYING OF CHARGES 222
UNDERTAKING #4: PROVIDE ANY
INFORMATION SUPERINTENDENT
3
DUECK MAY RECALL OR GLEAN FROM
OTHERS ABOUT THE
PREPARATION AND USE OF THE LISTS OF NAMES USED IN
INTERVIEWING THE ROSS CHILDREN .......... 242
UNDERTAKING #5: (TAKEN UNDER
ADVISEMENT): PROVIDE
PARTICULARS AS TO WHAT INFORMATION IN THE TRANSCRIPTS
OF INTERVIEWS WITH THE CHILDREN LED TO REASONABLE &
PROBABLE GROUNDS TO LAY CHARGES IN RESPECT OF EACH
PLAINTIFF .................... 278
------------------------------------------------------------
4
Q. B. No. 271 OF 1994
IN THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH
FOR SASKATCHEWAN
JUDICIAL CENTRE OF SASKATOON
BETWEEN:
DENNIS KVELLO, DIANE KVELLO, SHELDON KVELLO,
SHERRY KVELLO (by her litigation guardian Diane
Kvello), KARI KLASSEN, RICHARD KLASSEN, PAMELA
KLASSEN, MARIE KLASSEN, JOHN KLASSEN, MYRNA
KLASSEN, PETER DALE KLASSEN, ANITA JANINE KLASSEN,
PLAINTIFFS,
- and -
MATTHEW MIAZGA, SONIA HANSON,
RICHARD QUINNEY,
BRIAN DUECK, OWEN MAGUIRE, CAROL BUNKO-RUYS,
SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS (3),
DEFENDANTS.
RECORD OF EVIDENCE
EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY
of
BRIAN GEORGE DUECK
------------------------------------------------------------
The EXAMINATION FOR DISCOVERY of BRIAN GEORGE DUECK took
place before Mrs. Loraine Smith, Certified Official Court
Reporter, at the offices of C.V. Reporting Services Ltd.,
500 - 224 - 4th Avenue South, SASKATOON, Saskatchewan, on
THURSDAY the ELEVENTH and FRIDAY the TWELFTH of JULY, A.D.
2002.
-----------------------------------------------------------
ATTENDANCE: (in addition to the witness)
MR. R. L. BORDEN Borden Holgate
Law Office
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
SOLICITOR FOR ALL THE PLAINTIFFS
EXCEPTING RICHARD KLASSEN
MR. D. A. GERRAND Gerrand Rath
Johnson
Regina, Saskatchewan
SOLICITORS FOR THE DEFENDANTS BRIAN DUECK
OWEN MAGUIRE, SASKATOON BOARD OF POLICE COMMISSIONERS
MR. RICHARD ALLEN KLASSEN,
a plaintiff
MS. PAMELA KLASSEN, a plaintiff (July 11/02 only)
MS. DIANE KVELLO, a plaintiff (July 11/02 only)
------------------------------------------------------------
1 BRIAN GEORGE DUECK, sworn,
testifies:
5
1 MR. BORDEN, examining:
2 1 Q Good morning.
3 A Good morning.
4 2 Q Your name is Brian Dueck?
5 A That's right.
6 3 Q And you are employed
in the City of Saskatoon,
7 what is the name of your
employer?
8 A Saskatoon Police Service.
9 4 Q And how long have you
been a member of the
10 Saskatoon Police Service?
11 A Thirty-one years.
12 5 Q What is your designation
or position with the
13 Saskatoon Police Service?
14 A I'm a superintendent,
in charge of human
15 resources.
16 6 Q Are you referred to
as Superintendent Dueck?
17 A That's right.
18 7 Q And may I refer to you
as Superintendent Dueck
19 in these proceedings?
20 A Sure. Whatever you want.
21 8 Q I understand, Superintendent
Dueck. that you are
22 one of the defendants in
Court of Queen's Bench
23 action number 271 of '94;
is that correct?
24 A Well, I don't know the
number of the action.
25 MR. GERRAND: That's correct.
26 A Okay, that's correct.
6
1 MR. BORDEN: This is off the
record.
2 (Discussion off the record)
3 9 Q In any event, your counsel
has advised you and
4 you've agreed that you are
one of the defendants
5 in Court of Queen's Bench
action number 271 of
6 1994?
7 A I am.
8 10 Q And you've been sworn
in these proceedings?
9 A Yes, I have.
10 11 Q And you understand
that in this examination for
11 discovery you are required
to tell the truth
12 about those matters raised
in the pleadings?
13 A That's right.
14 12 Q Now, are you here in
any other capacity other
15 than as a personal defendant?
16 A No.
17 MR. BORDEN: I understand,
Mr. Gerrand, that
18 the evidence that Brian
Dueck is giving today is
19 on his own behalf and not
on behalf of any of
20 the other defendants in
this action?
21 MR. GERRAND: That's right.
22 MR. BORDEN: I represent
a number of plaintiffs,
23 let me tell you that I represent
all of the
24 plaintiffs other than Richard
Klassen. Richard
25 Klassen is here today. And
sitting in these
26 proceedings is my client
Pamela Klassen and my
7
1 client Diane Kvello.
2 13 Q Do you know Michael
Ross?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 14 Q When did you first meet
Michael Ross?
5 A It would have been in the
late fall, early
6 winter of 1989.
7 15 Q And under what circumstances
did you meet him?
8 A I was contacted by Social
Services who advised
9 me that they had a case started
and they wished
10 me to meet with Michael.
11 16 Q And so upon your making
enquiries what case did
12 you determine that to be?
13 A Well, that Michael had
made allegations of
14 sexual abuse against him
and that he had just
15 been removed from a foster
home and they wished
16 me to make contact and interview
him.
17 17 Q All right. This would
have been in late fall of
18 1989?
19 A Right.
20 18 Q And you understood
by that time, when you became
21 first involved, that Michael
Ross had been under
22 the care of Dale Klassen
and Anita Klassen; is
23 that correct?
24 A That's right.
25 19 Q Those are also clients
of mine and plaintiffs in
26 these proceedings. Did you
know that Michael
8
1 Ross had been moved to the
Thompson home?
2 A I was told that.
3 20 Q Were you told who these
Thompsons were,
4 something about them?
5 A Simply that Social Services
referred to them as
6 a therapy home.
7 21 Q Now what are the names
of the Thompsons?
8 A Lyle and Marilyn.
9 22 Q Prior to getting a call
from Social Services had
10 you opened up any files
regarding the Klassens
11 or the Kvellos?
12 A No.
13 23 Q And whenever I say
the Klassens or the Kvellos
14 I'm going to refer only
to the plaintiffs when I
15 use that term. There are
other Klassens and
16 there are other Kvellos,
but as it relates to
17 these proceedings I'm referring
specifically to
18 my clients.
19 A Right.
20 24 Q Had you opened up a
file regarding a Peter
21 Klassen prior to you receiving
a call from
22 Social Services?
23 A Myself?
24 25 Q Yes.
25 A No.
26 26 Q Were there any occurrence
reports as it relates
9
1 to Michael Ross opened prior
to your receiving
2 this call in late fall, 1989?
3 A I believe there were.
4 27 Q And what was that in
relation to?
5 A I believe that both Sergeant
Schindel and
6 retired member Marv Hanson
had had contact with
7 Michael. I believe it was
about 1985 to 1987,
8 the two contacts.
9 28 Q So there were matters
raised with respect to
10 Michael back in about the
years 1987 to 1989,
11 however --
12 A '85 to '87.
13 29 Q I'm sorry, 85 to '87.
Were you involved in those
14 matters?
15 A No, I wasn't.
16 30 Q Were you aware of the
circumstances leading to
17 those occurrence reports
and to the ultimate
18 disposition of those cases?
19 A Not until I got into this
case.
20 31 Q All right, fine.
21 MR. GERRAND: Just a minute.
At what point was
22 he aware?
23 MR. BORDEN: As he just stipulated,
he said,
24 Mr. Gerrand, that he became
only aware in the
25 fall of 1989.
26
10
1 MR. GERRAND: All right.
2 32 Q Now prior to the fall
of 1989 did you know Peter
3 Klassen?
4 A No.
5 33 Q Did you know any of
the Klassens or Kvellos
6 prior to the fall of 1989?
And again, for the
7 record, I mean the plaintiffs
in these
8 proceedings?
9 A No, I did not.
10 34 Q Who were your contacts
with Social Services?
11 A Well, there were many
and I can't remember who
12 the original one was. Sorry.
13 35 Q And after you became
involved in this matter in
14 the fall of 1989 who became
the person within
15 the Department of Social
Services with whom you
16 dealt with the most?
17 A Gosh. Again, I'm not sure
of that, it's a long
18 time ago. The two names
that come to mind to me
19 are Diane Ens and Liz Newton.
I know there were
20 others, I just don't recall
who they were.
21 36 Q Now I know it's a long
time ago. Would there be
22 any document that you would
like to refer to
23 that might refresh your
memory as to who you may
24 have spoken to at the Department
of Social
25 Services regarding Michael
Ross and allegations
26 of sexual abuse in the fall
of 1989?
11
1 A I don't believe there's
a document here. Social
2 Services may have one. I
don't have one.
3 37 Q Is it your evidence
today that Michael Ross was
4 making allegations against
his natural parents
5 in the fall of 1989?
6 A Well, as we got into the
interviews with him. It
7 wasn't even in the fall of
'89 when we started
8 that. The initial contact
with him, his
9 allegations were that there
had been sexual
10 abuse going on in his foster
home.
11 38 Q And when did you first
hear from Michael that
12 there were, in fact, allegations
of sexual abuse
13 in his foster home?
14 A When?
15 39 Q Yes.
16 A At my first meeting with
him.
17 40 Q Yes.
18 A In the fall of '89.
19 41 Q So it was in the fall
of '89 that you met
20 Michael?
21 A Right.
22 42 Q And in that meeting
with Michael did he reveal
23 to you that there were things
going on in the
24 home of Anita and Dale Klassen?
25 A That's what he referred
to, yes.
26 43 Q Now, is that the first
time that you had heard
12
1 Michael express the fact
that there were bad
2 things going on in that home?
3 A Yes.
4 44 Q Where did you first
meet Michael?
5 A We arranged a meeting at
the Taco Time
6 restaurant on 33rd Street
with Lyle and Marilyn
7 Thompson, and they brought
Michael in.
8 45 Q Now again, I realize
it has been a long time ago
9 but you've had the opportunity
to review some of
10 your occurrence reports
and some of your
11 documents prior to coming
here today, I'm sure.
12 Was the meeting at Taco
Time with Michael Ross
13 in the fall of 1989 the
first time that you met
14 Michael Ross?
15 A Yes, it was.
16 46 Q Would you recall the
month that you may have met
17 Michael Ross?
18 A I really can't.
19 47 Q Would it be fair to
say that the meeting at Taco
20 Time in the fall of 1989
involved a Lyle
21 Thompson, Marilyn Thompson,
Michael Ross and
22 you?
23 A That's right.
24 48 Q Was there any member
of the Department of Social
25 Services there?
26 A I don't believe so.
13
1 49 Q Was there any therapist
or counsellor there?
2 A No.
3 50 Q Was there any other
party there?
4 A No.
5 51 Q Prior to your meeting
with Michael Ross had any
6 of his sisters made any allegations,
as far as
7 you knew, regarding sexual
abuse?
8 A Not as far as I knew.
9 52 Q I'd like to refer specifically
to Michelle.
10 Prior to your meeting Michael
Ross at Taco Time
11 had you met Michelle?
12 A No, I had not.
13 53 Q Prior to your meeting
Michael at Taco Time had
14 you met Cathy?
15 A No, I had not.
16 54 Q So as far as you knew
and prior to meeting at
17 Taco Time on this particular
day, there wasn't
18 any written report relating
to Michael alleging
19 sexual abuse?
20 A Was I aware of any? No,
I was not.
21 55 Q So no written reports?
22 A No.
23 56 Q And let me ask you
this specific question. Did
24 Michael Ross disclose at
the very first meeting
25 at Taco Time?
26 A Did he disclose what?
14
1 57 Q Well the usual word
in terms of disclosed is
2 that he would make some remarks
or make some
3 statements regarding sexual
abuse, either to him
4 or to his family members.
5 A Yes, he did.
6 58 Q Right. And were you
able to review any
7 documents prior to coming
here that might have
8 helped you recall what he
may have disclosed at
9 that time at Taco Time?
10 A When he sat with me, when
he found out who I
11 was, he said to me that
-- basically, his words
12 were that, "Once I
feel safe I've got lots to
13 tell you about sexual abuse
at Dale and
14 Anita's."
15 59 Q Did you make notes
of that conversation?
16 A I'm not sure if I did.
17 60 Q Would you undertake
to determine whether or not
18 you made notes of that meeting
at Taco Time?
19 A Sure.
20 MR. GERRAND: We'll check
to see if we can
21 determine if any notes were
made.
22 MR. BORDEN: And once having
checked and determined
23 whether notes were made
would you undertake, Mr.
24 Gerrand, on behalf of your
client, to provide us
25 with a copy of those notes?
26 MR. GERRAND: We will. Superintendent
Dueck has
15
1 looked and to date hasn't
been able to find any
2 notes of that meeting; isn't
that correct?
3 A That's right.
4 MR. GERRAND: But we'll check
again.
5 UNDERTAKING #1: ATTEMPT TO
ASCERTAIN IF SUPERINTENDENT
6 DUECK MADE NOTES OF CONVERSATION
WITH MICHAEL ROSS AT TACO
7 TIME IN THE FALL OF 1989,
IF SO PRODUCE A COPY OF SAME
8 61 Q MR. BORDEN: When a file
is opened, particu-
9 larly a file regarding sexual
abuse of children,
10 I take it that the usual
protocol would be to
11 keep every piece of paper,
every document and
12 put it into one file; is
that correct?
13 A Well, things have changed
a lot from 1989 or '90
14 to today, certainly. In
1989 this was a new
15 field and certainly we tried
to hang on to every
16 piece of paper, every document
that we made,
17 absolutely.
18 62 Q Would it be fair to
say that by the time you met
19 Michael Ross that you had
already interviewed at
20 least 100 children on other
matters relating to
21 sexual abuse?
22 A Probably.
23 63 Q What was your position
at police services?
24 A I was a corporal in Youth
Section.
25 64 Q In the fall of 1989
you had already worked at
26 and in the Youth Section
for what period of
16
1 time?
2 A About a year and a half.
3 65 Q Wouldn't it be fair
to say by that time that you
4 had realized that everything
that a child utters
5 is part of a puzzle, part
of putting together
6 the case; is that correct?
7 A That's right.
8 66 Q So that if the child
utters something at Taco
9 Time or at any other place,
it would be helpful
10 to keep notes of that?
11 A That's right.
12 67 Q Did you keep notes
at home or did you keep that
13 at the police station?
14 A At the police station.
15 68 Q And were those notes
always in your custody and
16 possession?
17 A Yes.
18 69 Q When did you first
learn that those notes went
19 missing?
20 MR. GERRAND: He didn't say
--
21 A I didn't say that I made
a note of it.
22 70 Q MR. BORDEN: Okay, I
appreciate that. So what
23 you're saying is you have
a person, Michael
24 Ross, who, according to
the Thompsons has made
25 allegations of sexual abuse
in his former foster
26 home?
17
1 A Right.
2 71 Q And you're saying today
that you don't -- you
3 didn't make notes or you
don't recall making
4 notes?
5 A I don't recall making a
note.
6 72 Q Wouldn't that be part
of your protocol, however,
7 even at that time, 1989,
to make notes?
8 A I would say not necessarily.
9 73 Q Now, I realize that
you don't want to be sitting
10 there with a child and making
notes in front of
11 a child because that doesn't
help to get
12 information out.
13 A Right.
14 74 Q But surely, once you've
left that child and
15 you're on your way to the
police station or you
16 arrive at the police station,
you must have put
17 that conversation into a
report of some kind?
18 A I don't recall whether
I did or didn't.
19 75 Q Wouldn't it have been
part of the protocol at
20 that time to put the statements
of Michael into
21 an occurrence report?
22 A Not necessarily. At that
time often occurrence
23 reports weren't left until
the file was
24 completed, that's changed
since then but that
25 was the procedure at that
time.
26 76 Q And when you say until
the file was completed,
18
1 what do you mean by that?
2 A Until it was either completed
without charges or
3 completed to take to the
prosecutor for charges.
4 77 Q All right. So forget
the word occurrence
5 report. What other device
did you have that
6 would be helpful in keeping
a record of what the
7 child said around the fall
of 1989?
8 A Certainly notes would have
been. My meeting
9 with Michael that day was
about two minutes long
10 and that was about all he
said and from there it
11 was turned back over to
Social Services to do
12 the work that they needed
to do and come back to
13 me with whether they had
something to go with or
14 not.
15 78 Q Thank you. As I understand
the evidence, you --
16 MR. GERRAND: There hasn't
been any evidence.
17 MR. BORDEN: That's fine.
That's a good
18 point.
19 79 Q As I understand it,
you may have attended at
20 Michael's school at one
time in the fall of
21 1989; is that correct?
22 A No.
23 80 Q As I understand it,
you may have attended with
24 Michael, while Michael was
still living with
25 Dale and Anita Klassen?
26 A At a school?
19
1 81 Q Yes.
2 A No. I attended a school
in Warman after he -- I
3 believe that would have been
in 1990, though. I
4 attended at a school in Warman
that Michael
5 attended.
6 82 Q Do you dispute that
you attended at Michael
7 Ross's school prior to his
moving to the
8 Thompson home?
9 A Absolutely.
10 83 Q And do you dispute
having any interviews with
11 Michael whatsoever, prior
to his moving to the
12 Thompson home?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 84 Q Having met Michael
and knowing that he would
15 disclose, what steps did
you then take?
16 A I was back in contact
with Social Services and
17 advised them that they needed
to do whatever
18 they were going to do regarding
this case. They
19 normally started the investigation.
And that I
20 would wait for someone to
contact me with
21 information as to whether
we were going to
22 proceed.
23 85 Q As I recall, the meeting
was only a couple of
24 minutes long according to
your statements made
25 here today?
26 A That's right.
20
1 86 Q Do you recall the precise
words that Michael may
2 have uttered?
3 A Not precisely. Generally
I do, as I've stated
4 them earlier.
5 87 Q So Michael said words
to the effect, once I feel
6 safe I have a lot to tell
you about --
7 A Sexual abuse at Dale and
Anita's.
8 88 Q Now how old was Michael
at that time?
9 A I believe he was nine.
Nine or ten, I think he
10 was ten at that time.
11 89 Q Did you find it odd
that words such as, "once I
12 feel safe I have a lot to
tell you" to be
13 strange or odd if uttered
by a nine year old?
14 A Yes, I did.
15 90 Q Did you think that
someone may have talked to
16 him before you got there,
and put those words in
17 his mouth so to speak?
18 A I didn't think that necessarily,
but I was also
19 aware that people had already
talked to him.
20 91 Q When did you next deal
with Michael Ross?
21 A I believe it would have
been the starting of the
22 interviews in 1990, early
fall of 1990.
23 92 Q Now one year, then,
would have past?
24 A Almost a year, yes.
25 93 Q Now over that period
of one year, Superintendent
26 Dueck, did you at any time
get involved with a
21
1 case involving the Kvellos
and Klassens, or
2 allegations of sexual abuse
involving the Ross
3 children?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 94 Q So prior to that period,
the fall of 1990, what
6 happened?
7 A Well, from the information
I received from
8 Social Services, after our
meeting with Michael
9 Social Services became more
involved and removed
10 Michelle and Kathy from
that home as well and
11 did their own investigation.
And from that we
12 started a file on this case.
13 95 Q Now in order for them
to remove Michelle and
14 Kathy there must have been
some information.
15 Did you provide them information
so Michelle and
16 Kathy Ross might be removed
from the home of
17 Dale and Anita Klassen,
my clients?
18 A No, I did not.
19 96 Q Have you ever seen
an occurrence report or a
20 statement that might help
you in understanding
21 why Social Services removed
Michelle and Kathy?
22 A No, I believe Social Services,
it was a verbal
23 thing that they had removed
them. I'm not sure
24 when the children were assigned
to Carol Bunko-
25 Ruys, whether they were
involved with her before
26 I was involved or not, I'm
not sure. But that's
22
1 where the information came
from regarding what
2 was happening.
3 97 Q Did you form a team
with Liz Newton and Diane
4 Ens, in order to investigate
further allegations
5 of sexual abuse on the part
of Michael Ross?
6 A Well, again, Mr. Borden,
in 1990 we didn't form
7 those teams, that's been
a result since then.
8 But certainly, I had contact
with them, I
9 wouldn't even say regularly.
I know that they
10 had meetings that I did
not attend regarding the
11 case. I would say I would
-- to use the term --
12 liaise with them, but I
certainly was not part
13 of a team with them.
14 98 Q Prior to your meeting
with Michael on the second
15 occasion, which was the
fall of 1990, did you at
16 any time talk to Liz Newton
or Diane Ens about
17 other allegations Michael
may have made?
18 A I believe that my contact
after that was with
19 Carol Bunko-Ruys.
20 99 Q And did Carol Bunko-Ruys
tell you about other
21 allegations that Michael
had made?
22 A Yes, she did.
23 100 Q And did she say that
those allegations were made
24 after your meeting at Taco
Time in the fall of
25 1989?
26 A I don't recall.
23
1 101 Q Did you, prior to coming
here today, review any
2 of your documents to determine
what Carol Bunko-
3 Ruys may have told you in
the year 1990?
4 A I reviewed documents but
I'm recalling strictly
5 from memory that I had contact
with her, that I
6 would visit her at her clinic
or her offices on
7 Broadway Avenue and talk
basically about the
8 work that she was doing with
the children. And
9 from that it was determined
that I would start
10 interviewing these children.
11 102 Q When did you first
meet this person, Carol
12 Bunko-Ruys, who happens
to be one of the
13 defendants in this action?
14 A Probably about the spring
of 1990.
15 103 Q And in that period
of time was she the main
16 source person that you dealt
with that had
17 anything to do with the
Department of Social
18 Services?
19 A I would say so. She wasn't
working -- she was
20 contracted for Social Services
but she wasn't a
21 Social Services' employee.
But yes, I would say
22 she was my main contact.
23 104 Q What was her position
at that time, as far as
24 you knew?
25 A As far as I knew she was
the children's
26 therapist.
24
1 105 Q Did you know anything
at that time about her
2 qualifications, did you inquire?
3 A Not at all.
4 106 Q Not at all?
5 A No.
6 107 Q Did you inquire at
all about the qualifications,
7 let's say, of Diane Ens or
Liz Newton?
8 A No.
9 108 Q I want to talk to you
about these words "ritual
10 sexual abuse". When
did you first believe there
11 was a ritual element or
a satanic element
12 involved in this particular
case of Michael
13 Ross?
14 MR. GERRAND: The witness
hasn't said that he
15 believed that.
16 MR. BORDEN: Yes, that's
fine.
17 109 Q Am I wrong to say
that you believed that?
18 A There were disclosures
of that, I'm not sure
19 that I ever believed that
had actually happened.
20 110 Q Okay. So for the record
today, then, are you
21 saying that you did not
believe that at the time
22 those words were uttered,
"ritual sexual abuse",
23 "satanic sexual abuse"
involving the Ross
24 children and the plaintiffs?
25 A I think that in my opinion
"ritual" or "satanic"
26 has nothing to do with sexual
abuse, the term.
25
1 As police officers we work
on sexual abuse or
2 child abuse.
3 111 Q Did you see any evidence
of ritual abuse in 1990
4 involving the Rosses or my
clients?
5 A What would be the definition
of ritual abuse?
6 112 Q All right, fine. Let
me ask you that question,
7 how do you define ritual
sexual abuse?
8 A As I said, I mean, many
people have many
9 definitions of it but that
wasn't my concern. I
10 think that that becomes
a red herring in sexual
11 abuse investigations and
the focus is on were
12 they sexually abused? And
that's what I would
13 look at.
14 113 Q All right. I had asked
you what your under-
15 standing of the meaning
of ritual sexual abuse
16 was and you said other people
have different
17 understandings --
18 A Would you like to hear
mine?
19 114 Q Yes.
20 A Okay. Well, I would suspect
that in my opinion
21 it would probably have to
do with different
22 rituals, different ceremonies,
costumes,
23 disguises, those sorts of
things. And I get
24 that only from articles
I've read and speaking
25 to people.
26 115 Q Prior to your meeting
Michael Ross in the fall
26
1 of 1989 had you gone to any
seminars, meetings,
2 regarding ritual sexual abuse?
3 A Yes, I had.
4 116 Q So you did take the
opportunity to try to
5 understand the meaning of
that term better?
6 A Right.
7 117 Q And do you recall the
nature of those meetings,
8 who sponsored some of the
meetings that you
9 attended?
10 A Well I know that one was
sponsored by Social
11 Services. The other one
was sponsored by a
12 group -- there were two
that I attended -- it
13 was sponsored by a group
in Saskatoon and for
14 the life of me I can't remember
the name of the
15 group. I know who some of
the people were that
16 organized it, I don't remember
the name of the
17 group.
18 118 Q Were there any people
presented as so-called
19 experts in the area of ritual
sexual abuse at
20 either one of those two
meetings?
21 A Yes, there were.
22 119 Q Do you recall some
of their names?
23 A I recall the one and that
was Dr. Jon Conte.
24 120 Q At any of those meetings
did Liz Newton ever
25 present herself as an expert
or a specialist, so
26 to speak, in ritual sexual
abuse?
27
1 A Yes, she did.
2 121 Q And when you were making
determinations as to
3 whether there was that element
of ritualism,
4 Satanism, did you confer
with Liz Newton?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 122 Q And was that in relation
to the Ross case,
7 involving my plaintiffs?
8 A No, it did not involve
your plaintiffs.
9 123 Q Who did it involve?
10 A It involved the Ross children's
natural parents
11 and the birth mother's,
if I can call her that,
12 boyfriend or common-law,
Donald White.
13 124 Q Did you ever confer
with either Liz Newton or
14 Dr. Jon Conte regarding
ritual abuse of any of
15 the plaintiffs?
16 A Of any of the plaintiffs
in this case?
17 125 Q Yes.
18 A No. There were no allegations
of that.
19 126 Q So as far as you knew,
and I'm talking about by
20 the fall of 1990, there
hadn't been any allega-
21 tions of ritual sexual abuse
as it related to
22 the plaintiffs?
23 A No.
24 127 Q And as far as you
knew, by the fall of 1990, the
25 only allegations of ritual
abuse may have been
26 in relation to the children's
natural parents or
28
1 the boyfriend of the mother,
the natural parent?
2 A That's right.
3 128 Q And that person's name
was Donald White, as I
4 understand it?
5 A That's right.
6 129 Q Now, did in your investigation
your opinion
7 change, that is, after the
fall of 1990, that
8 there may have been a ritual
or satanic
9 component to the allegations
of sexual abuse
10 involving the plaintiffs?
11 MR. GERRAND: So what's the
question?
12 A Yeah, sorry, I missed
that one.
13 MR. BORDEN: Sure. Would
you like to read it
14 back, please?
15 COURT REPORTER (By reading):
Now, did in your
16 investigation your opinion
change, that is,
17 after the fall of 1990,
that there may have been
18 a ritual or satanic component
to the allegations
19 of sexual abuse involving
the plaintiffs?
20 MR. GERRAND: I don't believe
the question is a
21 fair question because I
don't believe the
22 witness has expressed the
opinion that he
23 believed there was a component
of ritualistic or
24 satanic abuse related to
the allegations of
25 abuse against these plaintiffs.
26 MR. BORDEN: Thank you, Mr.
Gerrand.
29
1 130 Q In 1990, in the fall
of that year, is it your
2 evidence that you did not
believe that there was
3 a ritual or satanic component
involved in the
4 Klassen and Kvello allegations?
5 A I did not believe that.
6 131 Q Did your opinion change
as to whether there was
7 a ritual or satanic component
after the fall of
8 1990?
9 A No.
10 132 Q Was there a time in
all of your investigations,
11 and I'll give you a time
line, let's say from
12 the fall of 1989 to 1993,
where you thought that
13 there may have been ritual
sexual molestation of
14 the children or sexual abuse
of the children
15 involving my plaintiffs?
16 A I believe that there was
a sexual molestation of
17 the children by your plaintiffs
but I wouldn't
18 call it ritual or satanic.
I should also
19 clarify that, I wasn't doing
any investigation
20 in 1993 into this file,
it ended with the
21 arrests of the people in
1992, in July.
22 MR. GERRAND: You said July
'92.
23 A Was it '92? It was '91,
I'm sorry. It's a long
24 time ago. July of '91.
25 133 Q MR. BORDEN: Prior
to interviewing Kathy Ross
26 or Michelle Ross, did you
talk to Dr. Jon Conte?
30
1 A Yes, I believe that seminar
was before I had
2 this file. I didn't talk
to him personally,
3 though, I just listened to
his presentation.
4 134 Q And was there any point
of time where you
5 solicited the opinion of
Dr. Jon Conte?
6 A I don't recall doing that,
no.
7 135 Q Do you ever recall
in an occurrence report or
8 any statement you may have
made where you said
9 that as it relates to the
Klassen/Kvello
10 allegations of sexual abuse
that you would want
11 to rely on the opinion of
Dr. Jon Conte.
12 A Do I recall saying that?
13 136 Q Yes.
14 A No.
15 137 Q And is there any period
of time where you may
16 have corresponded with Dr.
Jon Conte?
17 A Not that I recall.
18 138 Q Do you remember ever
being in a telephone
19 conversation with him?
20 A No.
21 139 Q Do you remember seeing
any other officer present
22 opinions by Jon Conte as
it relates to Michelle
23 or Kathy or Michael Ross?
24 A No.
25 140 Q Would it be fair to
say that in the determina-
26 tion of whether or not charges
should have been
31
1 laid against any of the plaintiffs
that the
2 advice or opinion of Dr.
Jon Conte was not part
3 of that determination?
4 A That's right.
5 141 Q Prior to the laying
of charges against each and
6 every one of the plaintiffs
did you seek the
7 advice of any other so-called
expert in the area
8 of sexual abuse and/or ritual
sexual abuse?
9 A Other than the people that
I worked with that I
10 considered to be experts?
11 142 Q Yes.
12 A That's Carol Bunko-Ruys
and social workers. No,
13 I conferred with the prosecutors
who handled the
14 case.
15 143 Q So what you're saying
is you left it up to
16 people that you thought
were the experts and
17 that would be, number one,
Carol Bunko-Ruys?
18 A Correct.
19 144 Q Number two, it would
be Liz Newton?
20 A I would suggest that,
yes.
21 145 Q And number three,
possibly, it would have been
22 Diane Ens?
23 A Possibly.
24 146 Q Was there any other
person that you may have
25 relied upon to give an opinion
regarding the
26 sexual abuse and/or ritual
sexual abuse of the
32
1 Ross children?
2 A Not that I recall.
3 147 Q Did you know Marie
Klassen?
4 A Marie Klassen?
5 148 Q Yes.
6 A The plaintiff?
7 149 Q Yes.
8 A Not personally.
9 150 Q In the fall of 1990
through to the fall of,
10 let's say, 1991, did the
name Marie Klassen ever
11 come up?
12 A Certainly, in the disclosures
it did, yes.
13 151 Q Okay, let's give you
some time lines here.
14 Prior to the fall of 1990
did the name Marie
15 Klassen arise?
16 A That I was aware of?
17 152 Q Yes.
18 A No.
19 153 Q So as far as you can
recall and your evidence is
20 today that you did not know
a Marie Klassen
21 prior to the fall of 1990?
22 A Not that I recall.
23 154 Q Later on did you determine
that there was such a
24 person as Marie Klassen?
25 A Yes.
26 155 Q And when did you first
make that determination? > >
>
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Truth can never be told so as to be understood,
and not be believ'd. 